Villagersonline : blogs : stevek : cremation
villagersonline
A Community Tunneling Protocol
The Village meets at 5pm Sundays
1926 N. Cloverland Ave. map

Links
(edit) The Village Cancer Relief Fund;


From: stevek
Date: Mon Apr 19 14:52:45 MST 2004 Subject: cremation

Responses
mike: cremation (4/19/04)
mike: I stand corrected (4/20/04)
rodhugen: Correcting the correction (4/20/04)
mike: oops (4/20/04)
Karen: Pagan practices? (4/20/04)
stevek: idolatry (4/20/04)
eric: an environmental vote (4/20/04)
MaryKay: My experience (4/23/04)
Karen: Yes, it was tangible (4/24/04)
stevek: conclusion (4/24/04)
russ: Webmaster's Note (4/29/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
russ: Webmaster's Note (4/29/04)
stevek: conclusion (4/24/04)
Karen: Yes, it was tangible (4/24/04)
MaryKay: My experience (4/23/04)
eric: an environmental vote (4/20/04)
stevek: idolatry (4/20/04)
Karen: Pagan practices? (4/20/04)
mike: oops (4/20/04)
rodhugen: Correcting the correction (4/20/04)
mike: I stand corrected (4/20/04)
mike: cremation (4/19/04)
I'm rewriting my Living Trust (Will) to bring it current and am a bit conflicted on the issue of cremation. Until recently I had no problems with the idea, and in fact as it presently stands my Will has cremation as the manner in which I want my remains to be dealt with. However, in thinking it through recently I began to wonder whether or not that's a scripturally sound decision. The only people I can see who were burned after death in scripture were non-believers/often idolators who were treated in that fashion as a punishment. Jesus was buried. There is plenty of reference in His teaching to graves. Yet, we're promised a new body - we relate to God in spirit, not in the flesh. God is spirit/I don't hold to the vision of floating around heaven as a chubby little baby with wings. In fact, I have no idea of what heaven is, except that it's the real and constant presence of the Almighty. Contrary to the gnostics' teaching, our body is not in and of itself sinful - it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we're to take steps to avoid defiling it. Does that include cremation? Does God care?
So, with all of that, I'm wondering how you all have sorted out the issue of cremation vs. burial - from the standpoint of scripture, not just a whimsical or p.c. conclusion. Also, if you don't have a Living Trust or Will, make one. It's the responsible thing to do - unless of course you just want the State to own all of what you leave behind and your relatives to be left to fight with the government for your stuff.

Edit this blog
Write a response Email the author



From: mike
Date: Mon Apr 19 16:20:08 MST 2004 Subject: cremation

I cannot give you scripture that tells us wether or not we should be buried or cremated. Whatever method we choose for our remains, the end result is ashes or dust. I do not think it matters to God, and I know it does not matter to the one being buried or cremated. It is a personal decision.
As for the pegan kings of the old testament, the fact they were pegans was the issue. Not the method of burial.
I am sure this will come up at the Ragin Sage tonite. See you then.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: mike
Date: Tue Apr 20 06:46:48 MST 2004 Subject: I stand corrected

At the Ragin Sage last night, Rod brought up some important points about cremation. First, it dodges the fact our loved one is dead. There is no finality to cremation. If uncle John is in an urn on the mantle, or is carried around in a box, there is a sense he is still with us, even though his body is a small pile of ashes. We do not have to deal with thoughts of eternity.
The idea is having ones ashes spread around a forest, dumped into the ocean, ect. to be one with nature is a pagan practice, and one we ought to avoid. After we die, we are destined to one place or the other. Not to become part of the force. If in death, we can further the gospel by forcing people to face eternity, we should.
I am not opposed to cremation because I do not think God can resurrect a pile of ashes. We all are going to be dust sooner or later. I do believe it is not glorifying the Lord if we choose a pagan practice to accomidate our families, or to make us feel better about the death we all must face.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: rodhugen
Date: Tue Apr 20 08:48:10 MST 2004 Subject: Correcting the correction

I don't believe I spoke against cremation last night at the Raging Sage. I think I was looking at the 'positive' elements of dealing with the reality of death and burial. In North American culture we have moved far from having to deal with death in a straight forward manner. When I was a kid a great Uncle died and his body was 'laid out' in the living room of their home for about a week and the presence of the power of death was palpable to the gathered family and friends. As a kid I was struck by the waxen shell that had once been my relative and I got to see close up and personal what the end of man is. The smell of decay was real. Oddly, I didn't feel traumatized by that, but it instead brought me to a realization that death is real but that life also must be real and that I ought to live life well. I don't think I thought that all out as a kid, but I clearly recognized the two opposing forces. It also allowed me to not grab the popular notions that death is just a 'passing through the door' imagery. Death is ugly and bodies decay and the shells that were animated by spirit are not pretty when the spirit leaves and returns to its Maker. "He looks so lifelike," is just euphemism.

I note that most funerals I conduct are no longer funerals, they are memorial services. The body is never viewed by family and friends, the body is then cremated and the ashes placed in an urn or box, and that is all followed by a memorial service where we remember the good things about our friend or relative. All this can be conducted without having to face the stench of death. It is almost like the person went on extended vacation or simply disappeared.

I love the story of Lazarus being raised from the dead. Jesus commands the crowd to roll away the stone and the people are concerned because it has been three days and the body will have begun to stink. They know this not because of theory or something they read somewhere, but because they are acquainted with death experientially and intimately. Most of us are afraid to die. We do not know what lies beyond it. The answer to our fear is not to avoid looking at death, but begin to deal with it by vicariously living into the death of others. As we cast about in our sorrow and fear, we can find true comfort that Someone pinned death to the mat and claimed victory over it. Life comes against the backdrop of death. The beauty of life is found in looking death straight in the eye and choosing life instead.

When my friend died a few months ago, we viewed the body that had been Pete's. It reminded me of how fragile my life is. And as I watched the workman lower that casket into the grave and as I threw dirt on the casket and as family members threw flowers into the grave, I was struck with the reality that man is dust and is like the grass of the field. Here today and gone tomorrow. Powerful imagery. Imagery that led me to remember my Creator and to walk more intimately with the One who formed me, loves me, and draws me to Himself.

I suspect cremation has its symbols too, but I think NA culture has used it as avoidance of rather than walking into death. All that said, cremation is far cheaper and it leaves more money for the wake where the real remembering begins. I realize that funerals are for the living, but I would like all of you to have to look at my dead body, then be buried in the cheapest casket made, after which you can all have a huge party and remember what a pain in the butt old Rod used to be. Especially when he got on his high horse about death and resurrection. I'm looking forward to to, in about fifty years, missing that party by a couple of days. Don't worry, I'll be doing some serious partying myself.

BTW, just for added correction, I think it was you and Steve who brought up the pagan ideas of spreading ashes to be one with nature. I brought up spreading ashes with appropriate Scripture reading and prayer. Should I stand corrected?

Rod

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: mike
Date: Tue Apr 20 09:39:51 MST 2004 Subject: oops

Sorry. I did not mean to say you spoke against cremation. I did mean to quote you. The thougts I blogged on cremation are my opnion.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: Karen
Date: Tue Apr 20 11:04:26 MST 2004 Subject: Pagan practices?

Hmm. If we're going to throw something out simply on the basis of "it's what the pagans have done," then we need to also stop holding hands/praying in a circle, and we also need to dump the Christmas tree ornaments while we're at it. There are Christians who do go this route of consistency, but it seems like legalism to me; sorry if I offend anyone. I think this falls under the gray area, a bit like "meat sacrificed to idols." Can *you* do cremation with a clear conscience? It is a freedom in Christ thing. A follow-the-Holy-Spirit's-directive thing.

I remember the leader of the YMCA camp I attended as a small child (and a Christ follower); he was a New-Age type guy named Steve who in camp settings, liked the name Chief Rising Sun (!). He led evening prayers in a circle around a fire (pagan in origin) directed to the Great Spirit (a reference sometimes used by Native American animists). Now, even at the age of eight, I had the discernment to realize, *he* may not quite realize whom he's praying to, but *I* know who I'm praying to. I know *I* was not participating in a pagan ritual because that's not where my heart/soul were. I'm not sure this works for everyone, though. If you come from a pagan history, you may have to cut a distinct black-and-white boundary between things.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: stevek
Date: Tue Apr 20 13:15:59 MST 2004 Subject: idolatry

Dictionary definition - "Pagan; One who has no religion/One who is not a Christian, Muslim or Jew; a heathen." Well, that only confuses things more because I see an internal inconsistency in that definition. We make 'religion' out of our own idolatry. Christians, Muslims and Jews don't have a corner on the market of making something 'religion' in their lives. Sports, television, others' opinions of us - any of the gods we serve. What I recoil from, regardless of what label it receives, is from the practice of spreading ashes "and becoming one with nature" in the process. I'm a part of nature right now in the truest sense of the word. Being a pile of ash isn't going to increase that reality. As for 'pagan rituals,' toss in all of the Easter trappings we engage in, along with the Christmas ones Karen made reference to. So, yes, we already play the pagan game to some degree. And I agree that it's a matter of the heart/legalism says don't participate in those holidays because of their origin. The Apostle Paul says that if you don't keep all of the law, you've violated it in total. So a pox on the house of the legalists. My purpose isn't to put a label on the practice of cremation vs. burial, but to seek whether God has given us direction in the Word as to whether or not the manner of disposal of our bodies matters to Him. Look at Joshua 7, 2 Kings 23 and 1 Chron. 14 for examples of how God ordered the burning of idols, or the burning of bodies which had been stoned to death due to sin for the purpose of purifying the land on which they laid. Ezkiel 24 shows God burning Jerusalem once all of the inhabitants had left in order to purify it from the idolatry which had been being practiced. So we might conclude from that that God would view cremation as a sort of final symbolic purification - that may be a stretch, but this is stream of consciousness, so give me a little grace in all of this. It's a sorting through process. Ok, God didn't allow Shadrack, Meshak and Abednego to be burned - in fact, He entered the fire with them and delivered them. New Testament Christians were not burned at death by God, despite their sin, but they were made martys of by the Romans and burned because of their faith. We don't see God ordering any of the burnings, but it being performed by those in opposition to Christians. And before that, Abraham was buried. David was buried. Jacob was buried. God doesn't seem to have burned His children's bodies as a means of 'laying them to rest,' but used that as a means of demonstrating the need to purify sinful behaviors. On the other side of the coin, scripture teaches that we are not our bodies, but we are spirit. God is Spirit and we interact with Him in Spirit, not in our flesh. Our body houses that which we really are, and once the body dies, the spirit (we) leaves the remaining carcass. Is it like the butterfly leaving behind a caccoon once it is fully developed and freed? And the caccoon is then just rubbish, having accomplished it's purposes? Many have gone to see The Passion of the Christ. Was His suffering in the flesh the most severe, or was the deepest suffering Jesus experienced the separation in spirit from the Father while He hung on the cross? Others have suffered more severe physical abuse than did Jesus. None has suffered as He did from the separation in spirit. So, the body - that which Paul teaches is decaying, but the spirit lives on. I'm seeing both sides/God doesn't show us the precedent for cremation, and yet our body only houses who we really are, and it is in our spirit that God joins us in relationship. I'm still straddling...

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: eric
Date: Tue Apr 20 16:49:25 MST 2004 Subject: an environmental vote

The marrying of Pagan and Christian practice is as old as Paul’s lecture on Mars Hill in Act 17, when he interwove into our theology very Greek pantheistic beliefs - by quoting a hymn to Zeus. Trying to pry ourselves from pagan ritual in our practice is next to impossible. I would though, make a plug for cremation because of over population and God's instructions about taking care of the earth. There is no evidence for God being for or against cremation. I would argue, even in the light of Steve’s suggested readings, that the bible is silent on the issue.

E

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: MaryKay
Date: Fri Apr 23 14:45:15 MST 2004 Subject: My experience

I must admit that I have a very emotional response to the topic of cremation. Both of my parents were cremated at their request and I supported them in their decision. Mom spent six years battling cancer and Parkinson Disease took a piece of my father’s life each day. By the time death arrived there was no question of the frailty of the body, the stench of death, and the family and friends that truly loved them experienced death in a very real way. As my siblings and I spread the ashes we prayed and said our goodbyes. It was after this time that we were ready to gather loved ones together to remember and celebrate the lives of our parents. While there was sadness there was also beauty for us in the separation process. I understand that others may find more peace with a non-cremation option and that’s cool too. I’d like to add that I believe it is good to discuss what your desires are on this subject with the people you love but it is the ones left behind who will have to deal with the grief and should have a say in the final decision. Only they will know what will be helpful and healing to them in the grieving process.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: Karen
Date: Fri Apr 23 18:32:11 MST 2004 Subject: Yes, it was tangible

I hear ya, Mary Kay.

I started coming to Vespers in summer 2001, the last months that my beloved grandmother was alive. The *@!#*** tumor ate her alive from the inside out, eventually cutting off her ability to digest food, so she slowly starved to death. Still, she managed the strength to smile from time to time. The last words I ever heard her spoke were to my sister Diane: "Don't be sad." She died several days later; in her last hours technically alive, but unconscious, she was metallic gray. Many of you know about my fairly keen sense of smell, and the odor of death was on her before her spirit left her; unfortunately the memory of that scent took days to leave my consciousness. My mother, two sisters, my mother's twin sister and I gathered the night she died to sing to her, trying to show her it was OK to leave us, and she finally did a couple of hours later. The phone call came around 10:30, and back we went to the hospital. Odd to say this, but it was surprisingly not particularly creepy, but actually easier to see someone I loved dearly right after she died than just before. The struggle was over then.

Cremation did not interfere with my ability to process the finality of Mary Elizabeth Young's death, or that of her husband, my Grandpa Hugh, six months later. The deaths seem very real at every holiday, every family gathering. Fortunately, there is more sweetness now, less bitterness than before.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: stevek
Date: Sat Apr 24 14:24:26 MST 2004 Subject: conclusion

I've read all of the responses, prayed a good bit over this, and spoken with several other believers and have pretty much ended up where I began in all of this. That is in agreement with Eric's position that the Bible is silent on the topic/it's a matter of the heart. I also agree with MaryKay's position that those left behind need to be considered in the decision. With that in mind, one of the paragraphs in my Will now reads as follows:
'memorial services, burials, cremations - the events which take place after a person dies are for the healing and solace of those left behind. Therefore, use paragraph 9 below to determine who decides what form of disposal of my remains, and what arrangements for a memorial service are to be performed. My only request is that the memorial service be performed in the Christian church of which I am a member at the time of my death, be performed by the pastor of that church and during the memorial service, the following verses of Scripture be read aloud; John 1:1-4, John 1:14-17, John 3:16 and Matthew 11:28.'
There are some interesting statistics that Ann found related to this issue - she'll post them herself, stay tuned.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: russ
Date: Thu Apr 29 11:46:58 MST 2004 Subject: Webmaster's Note

Webmaster's Note

Mike's blog called "Nightmare" and the responses to it were moved to its own blog.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author


Write a blog
Latest Updates

blogs (upload)
eric: Parenting thoughts (8/11/14)
sunnygirl7d: Reuben fishing blog (1 resp) (8/8/14)
samantha: My new blog (8/11/14)
eric: New Website (8/7/14)
dbonilla: Annie Moses Band (3/14/14)
Suki: Ash Wednesday (3/5/14)
andrea: Good news update! (1 resp) (2/3/14)
Carena: More moving help (2/1/14)
Carena: A Friend in Need (3 resp) (1/25/14)
em: Tell me how I can pray (1/24/14)
andrea: Need for Volunteers-Foster Car... (1/19/14)
andrea: suffering (1/7/14)
rodhugen: Two quotes (2 resp) (1/3/14)
cwill: Please pray (2 resp) (1/26/24)
Carena: Polaroid Camera (12/23/13)

pictures (upload)
Suki: Vespers Dec 2012 (1/26/24)
eric: Ordination (3/16/14)
Suki: Soup Supper 2012 (3/17/14)
eric: Belonging 2012 (1/7/14)
eric: sabbath (3/16/14)

bios (upload)
Mike_Wise (1/16/13)
james (11/14/12)
clrclady (1/28/12)
SPark (11/27/11)
benjipark (12/2/10)

music (upload)
Frosted Flakes :
Everywhere j2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Flakes :
New Found Hope J2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Fla es :
Trinity Jan2014 (1/16/14)
Skeptic Chickens :
No Condemnation (7/29/13)
Karen and Friends :
Breastplate May 5 (5/10/13)

sermons (upload)
Eric,Ron Layman: The Disciplines RL (3/6/14)
Eric: Habakkuk Part One (1/16/14)
Eric: Noah's Ark (9/27/13)
Eric: The Fall (9/13/13)
Rod: Creation (9/13/13)

Villagersonline.com 2010
Contact Us
(edit) Site Meter
Free Search Engine Submission
Free Search Engine Submission

"Best Viewed at 1024x768 under the light of the full moon in July while Mercury is in Leo
and six pigmy marmosets do the lambada behind you singing Kumbaya" -- User Friendly