Villagersonline : blogs : russ : The Fall (or not?)
villagersonline
A Community Tunneling Protocol
The Village meets at 5pm Sundays
1926 N. Cloverland Ave. map

Links
(edit) The Village Cancer Relief Fund;


From: russ
Date: Wed Sep 29 08:05:58 MST 2004 Subject: The Fall (or not?)

Responses
Patricia: Sight (10/1/04)
Karen: Innocence (10/1/04)
russ: Chosen Naivete (10/2/04)
keibru: Easy as 1-2-3 (10/7/04)
benjipark: heads shall roll!!! (10/7/04)
Karen: Paradoxes (10/7/04)
emily: beautiful piece of thinking (10/9/04)
russ: What it... (10/10/04)
emily: choice (10/18/04)
jfpark: Inevitable (10/19/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
jfpark: Inevitable (10/19/04)
emily: choice (10/18/04)
russ: What it... (10/10/04)
emily: beautiful piece of thinking (10/9/04)
Karen: Paradoxes (10/7/04)
benjipark: heads shall roll!!! (10/7/04)
keibru: Easy as 1-2-3 (10/7/04)
russ: Chosen Naivete (10/2/04)
Karen: Innocence (10/1/04)
Patricia: Sight (10/1/04)
Ok, so I had a random thought a day or so ago that I'm now pursuing to see if it might have any validity. I'm very interested in everybody's thoughts about this.

I was pondering atonement, since Eric had asked me to write a blog about it. My starting thesis, as I've told some of you, is that atonement is not the point; it is simply a means to God's larger end, namely relationship. That's interesting, but I've spent some time pondering it and am now wondering if maybe I should go further.

In my view of things, God suffers, and he does so because he longs for relationship with us. He intentionally gives us the power to impact him, because without that power we would not have real relationship. Inherent in that power is the reality that, at least some of the time, we will use that power to betray him, and thus cause him pain.

The traditional viewpoint on atonement is that "God cannot tolerate the presence of sin, since he is holy, so atonement is necessary if relationship is to be established." Is that something we can draw directly from the Bible, or something we have surmised? Is it possible that God would have been willing to tolerate the pain - to suffer in silence for us - and that atonement is really for us? When we think of atonement as "forgiveness of sins," is that so that God can tolerate to be with us, or that we can tolerate to be with God?

Certainly, it seems that forgiveness is central to our relationship with God in this existence. So I don't think that we should even consider forgetting about sin; we are forced, for whatever reason, to face it in our current situation. But why?

The fact that the fruit was the fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" is significant. Certainly, by my old (and I think the traditional) view, Adam & Eve sinned first not by eating the fruit, but by choosing to eat it. Yet God's command focused on the fruit. Likewise, when God confronts them in the Garden, he doesn't ask about their choice; he instead asks them about the fruit itself. Why ask about the 2nd sin and not the 1st?

So the idea I'm throwing around is that perhaps Adam was sinful BEFORE the fruit, and that God overlooked that state and let him live in blissful ignorance of it. But, once Adam becomes aware of his own sin, then God is forced to introduce the topic into the relationship and to deal with it. This changes, perhaps, how we view the exile from the garden:

Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'"

This can be viewed as a punishment for sin. But it can also be viewed as a merciful act of God: "Adam must be allowed to die, so that this issue may someday be resolved between us. It would be (quite literally) hell for him to live forever with our relationship broken like this."

So, I went looking at Romans for some clues. I read 5:12-6:23, 7:7-25, 8:18-21. In the past, I've gone back to read Romans to see if my "heresies" had any validity and saw old passages in an entirely new light. Much the same is happening now. You start with 5:12-13, which is Paul's thesis about Adam, sin, and death:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."

Wow. There it is. "sin is not taken into account when there is no law." My old theology said that this was sort of an approximation - that God would punish sin, but would be gracious about how he did it. But one might also read it as God entirely overlooks sin when there is no law. 'Law,' especially as Paul uses it later, means "something from God which shows us what the standard is, and which thus makes us aware of the capacity to deviate from the standard." In this sense, the first revelation of Law is certainly the fruit; it is the first time that mankind becomes into "knowledge of good and evil."

This brings us to another troublesome passage: 5:20 says "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." This states that God intentionally piles on more and more Law onto us, so that our trespasses might increase. God is widening and deepening our knowledge of him. When this passage says that the "trespasses increase[s]," does that mean that we sin more because of the Law, or that we are aware of sin more because of the Law? I'm not sure yet, but I think that both possibilities fit with this idea I'm playing with. Either way, God is taking affirmative action to widen the gap between himself and sinful man.

7:25 gives another key statement: "Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have known what sin was except through the law." It's the fruit again, and the commandments that follow. They let us know about an existing condition. He continues: "For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet.' But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire." So we have to be careful here. No matter what our original condition - whether that was innocence or sin - in our current state we run after an abundance of new sins. We are truly fallen, and truly depraved, no matter what we used to be.

Yet Paul continues on, and makes things complex again: "For apart from the law, sin is dead." (Dead in what sense? Powerless? Inert? Condemned?) "Once I was alive apart from the law;" (WOW) "but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

The next verse is again key: "Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful." What I read from this is that the commandment/law uncovers sin for what it is, brings sin to its natural conclusion, but the point being that sin be revealed and rejected. It seems to me that the phrase "sin might become utterly sinful" means that the existing condition (sin) is developed to the point that its existence is intolerable (utterly sinful) and therefore must be resolved.

You get another statement of existing sin, and how that creates a dilemma, in verse 18: "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." Again, you have the idea that man has become aware of a terrible, intolerable reality - something that absolutely must be dealt with. This turns him to God in desperation in verses 24-25: "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Now, these passages are easily understood under conventional ideas of depravity. But that's our current state. What was our original state? The question remains: was there a Fall, or was it a Revelation? I want to look at 8:19-21, where Paul talks about the state of Creation. "The creation waits in eager anticipation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself might be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Notice that the *purpose* for the frustration was that it "might be liberated from its bondage to decay." That means that decay was part of the prior state of Creation. It is not part of the Fall. Thus, pre-Fall Creation is not yet what God intends to someday make it, and its frustration is (at least partially) part of a plan to bring it into a beautiful completeness.

Now, when we go back to Genesis, we have a clear statement that "the ground" was cursed because of Adam. However, the curse is not "decay." Instead, the curse is "painful toil" "thorns and thistles" "sweat of [Adam's] brow" and death. Interestingly, eating "plants of the field" may also be part of the curse. The idea of working a field, rather than cultivating a garden, may be part of the curse.

Now, when Adam is cast out of the Garden, he loses eternal life, because he can no longer eat from the tree of life. But in context of Paul's statement that "decay" is the sad original condition of Creation, we might be able to say that he too comes under decay when he is cast out. Perhaps Eden is the place of eternal life and ordinary Creation is the place of decay?

I think what I'm getting at in all this is the idea that perhaps the Fall was not a "deviation" from the Plan so much as it was the necessary first step towards something that God wanted to see. In this metanarrative, God creates us with the capacity to sin, and for all we know we may have actually sinned against him in that state. Yet the Suffering God chooses to overlook all that and have relationship with us regardless. He is willing to stay in that relationship as-is; yet he longs to have a relationship that is not marred by sin.

When Adam eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, everything changes. Adam suddenly becomes aware of what he is and his capacity to reject God. And he looks at the past 5 minutes, and realizes that that is exactly what he has done. He is terrified to face a righteous God in his state, and hides.

God re-enters relationship in vulnerability again. He seeks out Adam (although he waits for Adam to reveal himself), and converses with him. Adam is terrified, ashamed, and lonely, now knowing who and what he is, yet God deals gently with him. Rather than have Adam permanently trapped in his state of sin, God promises a redeemer, and then provides the ultimate redemption: death.

As time progresses, God continues entering into the lives of mankind, teaching them about himself and about themselves. He offers commandments so that they may become even more fully aware of the depths of their own depravity, and provides (temporary) sacrifices as a way of making the guilt tolerable.

In time, when mankind is ready to understand the need, God provides a final sacrifice in Christ. Christ takes on death on behalf of mankind, paying a price that no depraved man was qualified to pay. In his death, Christ offers a complete solution for the problem of depravity. Mankind is forgiven, and can be with God again. The Spirit is sent to dwell with men and to give them a foretaste of the completion to come.

In Heaven, then, is a new reality. It is not a restoration of what Eden was, but instead a new thing that God has always longed to have. Mankind, and the Creation that he rules over, has been brought through the trial into something new. Creation is no longer subject to decay; man needs no longer be subject to death. And most importantly, the relationship between God and Man is no longer marred by sin (knowing or unknowing). Man is brought into a "new thing" which, apparently, could not have been accomplished any other way.

The beauty of this metanarrative, in contrast to the ones I've generally held, is that it is an entirely forward-pointing one. If there was a Fall from perfection, then we have to deal with the idea that some men were created only to live under sin and then be sent to Hell. But if this idea I have is true, then the Fall was not so much a step backward that God must fix but a necessary (though very traumatic) step forward. The apple, then, becomes symbolic not of moving away from God, but of the first moment when we became aware of the possibility of moving toward God. Before the apple, we did not know that we were sinners. After the apple, we know, and we have for the first time a real opportunity to do something different. And when God provides Christ (and then, later, the Glorification), then we are empowered to do that thing that our true selves long to do: to somehow be with God (again) (and better).

Thoughts?

Edit this blog
Write a response Email the author



From: Patricia
Date: Thu Sep 30 18:17:06 MST 2004 Subject: Sight

Thoughts? Thoughts. Exploring the path of your thoughts.

I have wondered about Eve's response to the serpent when asked if she may eat "any" fruit. It may have been that she was ill-informed about the limit God had actually set. But why would she have been informed wrongly? Did Adam lie to her? Or did she exagerate - which is just another form of lie? Either way. A lie is a lie, and a lie is sin. If there was no sin in existence before the event known as the Fall, how could Eve have said she wasn't even allowed to touch the fruit?

On the other hand, Jesus pointed out a couple of times that, in order to have access to Heaven, one must be like a little child. So, it's not a matter of innocence, but a matter of ignorance. Little children grow and learn stuff. Ignorance no longer applies - they learn the difference of good and evil. Now they have to learn obedience (to rules/laws). Obedience reqires humility and trust (like that of a little child...).

If overall innocence (as opposed to innocence in a certain situation) was the condition required of us, there would be no hope. Once lost, innocence can never be regained. At best one can be acquitted. But that's not the same. Grieving the loss of unbroken relationship, however, does not leave us in utter hopelessness, because it can be mended, reinstated as such.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: Karen
Date: Fri Oct 1 16:37:23 MST 2004 Subject: Innocence

Hey Patricia (and others), I believe that innocence can be/has been/is being/will be restored. I will argue this as the word nerd that I am, with references to the Webster's in my classroom & a few general references to the Holy Writ :-)

Innocent comes from the Latin word "innocens," which literally means not doing wrong/harm/injury to. Yeah, the handy-dandy Webster's tells me that nocens is actually a present participle form; it doesn't mean not having done wrong, but rather, means not *presently* doing wrong.

Nocens comes from the Latin verb "nocere," to harm, related to the word "necare," to kill, which itself came from a prehistoric word for dead body. So innocence, literally, at its very word-core, is referring to the opposite of what brings death.

In that sense, it's all too obvious that we humans lost our innocence somewhere along the way (whether before or "at" the Fall). Yes, so many of our actions have been injury-producing, death-producing. Yes, Russ, there were injury & death to relationships w/God and w/others (and even relationship "with oneself," if you'll excuse the expression), as well as injury and death to the physical body.

I think all those mystical references in the Gospels to life, especially the dozens of references in John, are referring (at least in great part) to the supernatural restoration of our innocence. Our spirits are being restored, we are being recreated so that we will no longer do wrong, no longer harm or injure God/others/self. We are not patched up, damaged goods, but "new creations" (as Paul described us in 2 Corinthians 5 and Galatians 6).

Think about John 10: "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." The Enemy still wants to come after our innocence, without which there can be no true joy. How could a self-aware injury-producer, death-producer experience true joy?? Yes, Russ, for such a "miserable creature" death would be a relief. But there's another answer that came through the new Adam, Christ, through his embodiment, crucifixion, & resurrection.

The damaged-goods relationship is the one we had with God pre-Christ. (Maybe even pre-Fall, as Russ argues.) Our ability to walk in grace may mean our willingness to choose to accept our new-found innocence in Him; without acceptance of this grace, we shrink back from God, missing the point...? Hmm. The Calvinists might say that God gives us the grace to accept his grace, or something like that, right? (Hey, Rod, are you out there? ;-))

As for "like a child"...I think Jesus was referring not to the "innocence" but to the low-status, relatively powerless & dependent nature of children. The I-wanna-work-to-earn-back-my-place-with-God folks are being so reasonable & so "grown up" about it, but it just won't fly. It can't. The problem is too serious, in a too difficult place for us to reach, like trying to operate on your own brain tumor.

I'm begging you, accept God's amazing offer: reclaim your innocence, people!!

And on that thought, I'll yield the floor to someone else. Any takers?

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: russ
Date: Sat Oct 2 12:18:25 MST 2004 Subject: Chosen Naivete

Pat pointed out that children are ignorant. They don't understand the realities of life. As we grow older, we start to get more experiences and many of those experiences are painful.

We are no longer naive. We no longer believe the simple, idealistic things that we used to believe. We have been hurt, and so we know that people have the chance to hurt us. We know that our closest loved ones have the most powerful chance to betray us. We know that their love is faulty, faithless, and selfish.

At some point, we look up in the sky and connect our pain with God. If God is truly so very powerful, then why does he let this happen? Why hasn't he punished the people who sinned against us? Why did he give use the chance for evil in the first place? Is he, himself, evil? Or has he lied to us about how powerful he is?

We can't approach God that way. We can't love Him the way that He wants us to. We can't trust Him. We can't submit to His will. In the end, we can't really worship Him because we don't believe that he really loves us.

Yet, what I've seen in the great, old Christians that I have met is that they don't seem to understand those complexities. They don't have this complex, realistic understanding of the world. They just trust God, and that's it.

I used to think that they were foolish. But I've come to realize now that they're not. They were realistic and hurt in their past as well. But now they are different. I think that that's because they have come to an experience or knowledge of God which trumps the more obvious "realities" of this world.

We have to choose naivete. We have to look at God, and choose that the reality of Him is far more important than the realities of this world. Our true context is not the apparent context of the fallen world. Our true context is God. God loves us, and that determines our entire reality.

I don't think that that chosen naivete is really a bad thing. I'm not talking about forgetting about the painful realities. And, in truth, I'm not really talking about being naive. But we have to choose to say that this world is not nearly so important as we think it is. To do so, we must go through a time where we seem to be doing something incredibly foolish. We have to put ourselves in a position where we feel stupid and scared. But I believe that on the other side of things, we will find that our choice was right. The world is not the point; God is the point.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: keibru
Date: Wed Oct 6 21:59:06 MST 2004 Subject: Easy as 1-2-3

I shall, with a flick, clarify and admonish:

#1 Russ: the whole idea of Adam's status before or after "the fall" boils down to semantics. You get to the same place no matter how you got there. Why do you have to mess with age old stuff like that?

#2 Karen: no, you can't regain lost innocence b/c history is history and it does stuff to you that cannot be organically undone. You can, however, have your sinfulness redeemed so that your status before God is "clean". They're not the same thing.

#3 Eric: why haven't you said something to Russ about his epic entries to this website? Something must be done.

K

Edit this response
Write a response



From: benjipark
Date: Wed Oct 6 23:57:19 MST 2004 Subject: heads shall roll!!!

I think it's an outrage! much to much thinking. Church members should walk in a straight line, always keep their shoes tied and be mostly brainless.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: Karen
Date: Thu Oct 7 14:34:43 MST 2004 Subject: Paradoxes

Revelations 21
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Passages like this in the Bible make me question the spiritual-level accuracy of what you said, Keith :-) Yes, I know that what you said MAKES SENSE, is borne out by our EARTHLY EXPERIENCE; it is a very rational approach to the redemptive process. But I don't believe that the redemptive process, as revealed to us in the New Testament (or heck, even the OT) is completely rational. While the past obviously cannot be "undone," while it's obvious that many consequences of one's sin and other's sin(at least on this Earth, for this lifetime) must simply continue to be borne, I believe grace working on, in, and through us will in fact, quite literally, recreate us. I don't understand this as a succint event, but as a long, convoluted, paradoxical process, one that will not be completed until some point later on, but one that I can choose to accept and move into now. Can we fully reclaim our lost innocence in this lifetime? No. Can we start to move into that? Yes. Will we "get there" eventually? Definitely yes. Our lost glory will be fully restored. I believe that's a big part of the Good News. Sure, it sounds nutty...that's why most people don't accept it :-) But referring back to what Russ originally said, I personally don't want to live the next 1,000 years dragging my sin baggage, schlepping the tragic loss of my innocence behind me. Much less the next 10,000 years!

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: emily
Date: Fri Oct 8 18:34:14 MST 2004 Subject: beautiful piece of thinking

Well Russ, your amazing piece of thinking brought tears of naive joy to my jaded eyes. I have been wrestling for a long time with the traditional views of "the fall" and "sin" and "redemption". Most of the time those words just blow around my soul like dry, dead leaves in a hot wind that howls "meaningless! meaningless!" And I have to shut it out in order to hug my sweet kids and show them that life is worth living and God is worth knowing.

I have many more thoughts on specific points of your essay but for now I will just say that it is the most beautiful rendition of the history between God and humanity that I have ever heard.

EMC

Edit this response
Write a response



From: russ
Date: Sun Oct 10 08:31:29 MST 2004 Subject: What it...

When we get to Heaven, we're pretty sure that we won't have any trouble with sin anymore. It's possible that this means that we are changed somehow where we can't sin anymore, or perhaps that we are given a nature which is able to reliably choose the right path.

Another possibility, one that is less comfortable to me, that we loose the capacity to choose sin. What if the whole point of this enterprise is to generate a group of people who have experienced what choice (total freedom) is about, and have decided that it isn't such a good thing after all?

That sort of lines up with the comparison of the time of the Judges ("in those days there was no king, every man did as he saw fit") with the kingdom. At least in the history of Israel, it seems like the kingdom is set up as a solution to the problem of chaos and sin. A king, at least a Godly king given in a Godly timeframe, was supposed to lead Israel to a better, more righteous future.

Of course, no sinful man can be a reliable leader; perhaps that's part of the plan. We have come to understand the fact that people are not reliable, and that our loss of freedom is dangerous. Thus, in this world, we keep fighting to defend our freedom from those who might betray us. Perhaps the whole point is for us to come to trust God so implicitly that we totally surrender the power to defend ourselves in this way, and we give up choice to somebody we trust.

Then again, maybe not.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: emily
Date: Mon Oct 18 16:11:15 MST 2004 Subject: choice

Hmmm....choice...choice...what is so great about choice? I suppose it could be true that God's idea for humanity is that we taste choice and then renounce it. And I suppose if we think that God "cannot" sin then there must be some worthwhile state that includes "not being able to sin". But we usually tend to shy away from the idea that God is unable to "sin". It doesn't seem right that He is "unable" to do anything. We tend to want to explain it by saying that He really, really, really, really WON'T!!!

If rennouncing the ability to sin is where we're headed then I think we've got some wrong ideas about "growth". In general it is considered more a "immature" stage of growth that just takes away the possibility for not doing what you don't want to do. So cloistering yourself away or whatever form that takes is not as impressive as habitually choosing "right".

And it seems that many miserable souls would be overjoyed to take the "I can't sin anymore" drug. If the only choice involved is "will I give up my freedom of choice" then I have a long life to live ahead of me that feels like a waste! If I am ready to give up my choice then why wait? There is no point to my "perseverence". Struggling against the inclination to sin is a useless task appointed for our life on the planet. Perhaps giving long life to the righteous not as great a blessing as its touted to be?

I prefer to think that there is something important about having choice and choosing God. I believe that heaven will be a wonderful place for us, prepared by a God who knows us intimately. And above all, God wants us to exist in a love relationship with Him. How do you feel about love without choice?

EMC

Edit this response
Write a response



From: jfpark
Date: Tue Oct 19 01:34:49 MST 2004 Subject: Inevitable

Emily alerted me to this discussion going on about the Fall. I can't resist putting in my 2 cents worth.

In my view, Adam was not so much sinful before the Fall as immature. Perhaps "childish" would describe it better. True, he hadn't sinned and he was innocent. But, he hadn't succeeded in resisting sin either. The ability to resist sin seems to me to be a necessary component of life in eternity. Satan was made a perfect being (we presume) but he turned against God and took many others down with him. So what is to prevent any being made in God's image from doing the same?

So God creates Adam innocent and childlike, knowing that he will inevitably fall. Was the Fall a great catastrophe? In one way, yes. But it was anticipated by God. A verse in the NT tells us that God's plan of saving men was conceived before the creation of the world. God knew that his children would put their hands on the hot stove. And he planned for the healing, the cure. I will go so far as to say that God knew that all of us would be like sheep and go astray. The pre-Fall innocence was not the kind that could deliberately fend off temptation, and choose to do the right thing.

I agree with the various thoughts expressed that it's all about relationship. God wants his children to love and trust him. But it seems to me there is no way to create full-blown, mature love and trust. Brand new beings have to learn to trust. Before they learn to trust, there will be inevitable episodes of lack of trust.

I guess what I'm saying is that the only way to learn what we need to learn about love and relationship is to learn it the hard way. Jesus commented of one woman in the NT that she loved much because she had been forgiven much. Certainly people do vary greatly in how much wrong they have to do before they catch on. And I'm not saying there is any excuse for the person who just tries to see how much wrong he or she can get away with.

C.S. Lewis in his book, "Mere Christianity" has a whole section he entitles "Beyond Personality". In the first part of that section he has a chapter on "Making and Begetting". He says that Jesus was begotten by God and therefore had the very nature of God. Adam was created like God, but not identical in nature. He says Adam and Eve were like statues or pictures of God. They had biological life, but not God's spiritual life. "A man who changed from having Bios (biological life) to having Zoe (spiritual life) would have gone through as big a change as a statue which changed from being a carved stone to being a real man. And that is precisely what Christianity is about. This world is a great sculptor's shop. We are the statues and there is a rumor going round the shop that some of us are some day going to come to life." (p. 140 Mere Christianity)

I agree with you Russ that the Fall was a predictable part of the plan, perhaps inevitable. Stone men have to fall and break into pieces before they can be restored as spiritual men. In some sense we all go through it. Could some men and women have avoided the Fall and gone on to be perfect beings? Maybe, but we know nothing about them.

Jim..

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author


Write a blog
Latest Updates

blogs (upload)
eric: Parenting thoughts (8/11/14)
sunnygirl7d: Reuben fishing blog (1 resp) (8/8/14)
samantha: My new blog (8/11/14)
eric: New Website (8/7/14)
dbonilla: Annie Moses Band (3/14/14)
Suki: Ash Wednesday (3/5/14)
andrea: Good news update! (1 resp) (2/3/14)
Carena: More moving help (2/1/14)
Carena: A Friend in Need (3 resp) (1/25/14)
em: Tell me how I can pray (1/24/14)
andrea: Need for Volunteers-Foster Car... (1/19/14)
andrea: suffering (1/7/14)
rodhugen: Two quotes (2 resp) (1/3/14)
cwill: Please pray (2 resp) (1/26/24)
Carena: Polaroid Camera (12/23/13)

pictures (upload)
Suki: Vespers Dec 2012 (1/26/24)
eric: Ordination (3/16/14)
Suki: Soup Supper 2012 (3/17/14)
eric: Belonging 2012 (1/7/14)
eric: sabbath (3/16/14)

bios (upload)
Mike_Wise (1/16/13)
james (11/14/12)
clrclady (1/28/12)
SPark (11/27/11)
benjipark (12/2/10)

music (upload)
Frosted Flakes :
Everywhere j2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Flakes :
New Found Hope J2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Fla es :
Trinity Jan2014 (1/16/14)
Skeptic Chickens :
No Condemnation (7/29/13)
Karen and Friends :
Breastplate May 5 (5/10/13)

sermons (upload)
Eric,Ron Layman: The Disciplines RL (3/6/14)
Eric: Habakkuk Part One (1/16/14)
Eric: Noah's Ark (9/27/13)
Eric: The Fall (9/13/13)
Rod: Creation (9/13/13)

Villagersonline.com 2010
Contact Us
(edit) Site Meter
Free Search Engine Submission
Free Search Engine Submission

"Best Viewed at 1024x768 under the light of the full moon in July while Mercury is in Leo
and six pigmy marmosets do the lambada behind you singing Kumbaya" -- User Friendly