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From: russ
Date: Tue Oct 26 21:20:12 MST 2004 Subject: On Relativism

Responses
derek: I can dig it (10/28/04)
russ: First Response (10/28/04)
russ: Second Response (10/28/04)
eric: onward and upward (11/14/04)
rodhugen: hmmm... (10/29/04)
derek: Relative to God (10/29/04)
russ: Wow (10/29/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
eric: onward and upward (11/14/04)
russ: Wow (10/29/04)
derek: Relative to God (10/29/04)
rodhugen: hmmm... (10/29/04)
russ: Second Response (10/28/04)
russ: First Response (10/28/04)
derek: I can dig it (10/28/04)
"What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
-- Morpheus, "The Matrix"

Morpheus only got it half right. There's really no way for us to know that our perceptions even have anything to do with our brains.

We cannot know anything with absolute certainty. Sure, we can feel absolutely certain about something...but we can never know that our certainty is appropriate. We cannot step outside our context and look at ourselves objectively.

We can look at the world, and we can make careful observations. But we cannot prove finally that even have the ability to perceive, nor that our logic is a reliable tool for understanding what we perceive.

Even if we grant ourselves the assumption that our observations are accurate and our logic is reasonable, we cannot be sure that our perceptions and logic are not colored by our culture, by our previous experiences, and our language. How do you describe something for which there is no word? How do you remember it accurately? How do you come to understand it?

In the end, we must be pitied, for while we cannot avoid the idea that we "know" the world, we can never know if we really know.

In comes relativism. To many people, relativism (in its most extreme form) means that each person defines his own reality and simply ignores any "truth" that he doesn't like. That makes Christians uncomfortable, because we have a God who makes rather direct statements about who he is, who we are, and how we should treat him. Many a Christian has opined, quite reasonably, that relativism must be in direct opposition to God. The book of Judges spoke against something a lot like relativism: "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."

dictionary.com has two definitions for relativism:
1) "A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them."
2) "The philosophical doctrine that all criteria of judgment are relative to the individuals and situations involved"

The key thing to note is that relativism can include groups.

The folly of relativism as we have come to know it to date is that it assumes that each individual is a separate entity. Thus, understanding must be an individual phenomenon. The monolithic unit is inside a sphere of his own reality. All that he knows is what penetrates that sphere. No person has any right to make any assumptions about what does (or should) happen inside that sphere.

But man is not an isolated entity. Every one of our identities is wrapped up in the relationships that we have. Relationships determine what language we speak, and thus what we can easily understand. They determine our cultural assumptions. They determine our preferences, our fears, and our dreams. Man is a communal being.

Thus, man must be modeled as a communal being. Like a colony of children growing up inside a spaceship with no windows, we are unable to see outside our communal box, but within that box we have almost unlimited impact on each other.

But is that any different? Can't a colony of people choose to reject God just as much as any single person?

That depends on whether God is one of the group.

Romans says that "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities...have been clearly seen." God has relationship with every person, and has added his bit to the context. We cannot escape it. He interacts with us, in small ways and large, and thus changes us, changes our perceptions of the world, and gives us the vocabulary (or even the non-verbal revelation!) necessary to understand the world in new ways.

We know that we can perceive the world for no better reason than because God tells us that we can. We know that our logic is reasonable for no other reason than God says so. Our knowing is intimately wrapped up with the revelation of God that has been encoded on our unconscious, and on our soul. We understand even the things we cannot express, because encounter with Him creates a relationship and an experience that transcends language.

If all that we know, and all of our confidence in that knowledge, is ultimately anchored in our relationship with God, then we are profoundly relativistic creatures. Our relativism is not the nihilistic, self-centered free relativism of the monolithic "one;" it is instead the worshipful, delighted relativism of the God-centered group.

So, what do we say then? Do we return to the old absolutism because we have relationship with God? No, because God doesn't promise that what he reveals is absolute. It is simply a sufficient approximation. We cannot know, so long as we live within the approximation, the bounds of truth that might be revealed some day. Nor can we know what might have already been revealed to someone else.

For thousands of years, those in relationship with God knew something. It was an absolute truth: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." They were the first monotheists in history (a remarkable achievement, which allowed them to build Michaelangelo's Chapel in Jerusalem), because they were told by their God that it was so. It became a mantra in their culture - there is only one God.

Imagine their consternation when Christ claimed to be God. "Before Abraham was, I AM!" It was a violation of what they knew to be true. But we (Christians) have, over time, come to the conclusion that the shema was just an approximation. It was true. Yes, the LORD our God is one. But also, there is something else you should know...

So did God lie? Did he shade the truth? No, God simply told them the truth, and it was enough truth for them in that time. Do you really think that our human languages and human brains can understand the realities of God? Everything we know is - or at least might be - just an approximation, an infinite truth compressed into something that a finite, fallen brain can handle.

So how can we tell the difference between "absolute" truths and approximations? The sad fact of the matter is that we can't. Practically by definition, if we can see outside of an approximation to see even the glimmer of possibility that there might be more to know, then approximation is not the limits of our knowledge - God has already revealed something more. Like how the Israelites waited for the Messiah, who they knew was coming but they didn't know what it would be like. When Christ came, he demonstrated (and then later explained) what the Messiah had been all along, and people understood.

So what confidence can we have in what we "know?" Can we really trust God? Should we hedge our bets about anything and everything, just in case God shows us more later? No. We must, as an act of worship, live wholly within the limits of what God has given us today. God has given this to us, as he has said that it is a sufficent approximation for us. To hesitate to live fully in it would be to distrust his provision, which is an act of rebellion exactly like Adam & Eve in the Garden.

We must live today as though what we have been shown so far is "absolute." But we also must live in the humility that God might tell us more at any time. That, too, is something that he has shown us, in our currently sufficient approximation. Or else I couldn't have thought these thoughts, and written this blog.

...

About the word "relativism." We live within the context of our larger cultural and Christian community just like we live within the context of God. We cannot, as individuals or as some sub-group, turn our back on the larger community. (A group which defines itself outside of its relationships is no better than an individual who does so.) The word "relativism" has been tarnished in the eyes of our fellow man, and is a stumbling block to our brethren. So let's avoid it. Let's leave the old word behind...even if it, according to the dictionary, might correctly (though only partially) describe us.

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From: derek
Date: Wed Oct 27 19:49:07 MST 2004 Subject: I can dig it

Russ,

I told you about two weeks ago about the project of personal random meditations I have been working on. I may steal this to insert into my musings on culture. I also was writing about passing judgement on others and showing love, which kind of ties itself into culture as well.

I've been somewhat torn between Christian Culture and the Emergent Church culture. I wish we could all just get along. Mainly, I wish so because I think both groups miss out on something apart from each other.

Dissection of culture is a strange thing, and Matrix has been overquoted by everyone on every side of Christianity. That isn't a blast against you at all, Russ, or at least I don't intend it as one. I understand your personal obsession with Matrix to be quite holistic, not demanding merely the spiritual pulled out but also demanding the cool slo-mo kung fu kicks. This should be the natural order of things. So says Sun Szu. I get frustrated, however, when people go out of the way to make the church relevant to culture by means of modern epic movie deconstructon. I think we ("we" being an all-inclusive term for Christians) need to take culture where it is at. We strive so hard to reveal our longings a la Aragorn of Lord of the Rings, but do little to satify the longings of culture or bring people closer to God. My point is that we need to find God and love Him in each movement of culture. Instead of drawing up sides we need to see the beauty of the other side. Sort of an inversed "grass is greener" scenario. Postmodernity has an amazing love for community, creativity, understanding, and individuality. We should admire these qualities. Modernity has a love of strength, development, knowledge, progress. We should admire this as well and find God in both cultures.

In fact, I have to find God in WWJD bracelets and the Left Behind book series. I have to interact with the people who read them and draw out their passion for God from them. I'd rather discuss Kurt Vonnegut or Dave Eggers, Bright Eyes or Bob Dylan, Matrix or Fight Club. Believe me. I can interact better there. I can find value easier there. I enjoy things raw and honest, I despise the pretense and show of culture. However, at Teen Challenge, in Christian Culture, and in the world, I have to deal with show, with TRL's top ten video countdown, with another 300 page novel written by the same author who wrote 4 more this past year which look exactly the same, who also lives in a beautiful mansion not necessarily located in Maine, though quite possibly. It is hard for me to find ways to love people in a modern consumeristic context. Mainly because I do not feel valued in that context. I have personal issues. But it is necessary for me to break free of those bonds and reach out, or else I am only fooling myself into believing that I love my neighbor. Or else I am making demands on which neighbors I will serve, on which I will suffer for. Sometimes I have to listen really hard to see how greatly God has spoken to someone through the Prayer of Jabez Daily Devotional Guide. Sometimes I am allowed to sit back and watch Fight Club with a friend (favorite quote: "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake." It is how I begin my book of meditations.)

All of that slowly comes back around to say how much I appreciate your blog. I love the view of relativism and of the continual revelations of God about who He is and how He operates. It is a difficult path to take, but one of openness and love, where we have to trust God for discernment and look for His revelation always in all men and all movies. I wonder what a conversation looks like to sit at the feet of someone who claims God to be woman, or Jesus black, or new books of the Bible found, and to honestly seek out their heart and a greater understanding of how God works. I don't want to creep anyone out by going all Thomas Merton Eastern Mystical on you all. I only present it as an opening for dialogue, both in those conversations and on the blogs. Perhaps the actual conversation looks more Socratic than pragmatic, simply walking them into into the walls intrinsic to their ideas. But maybe we walk into some of our own. Maybe we understand people better, love them better as our neighbors. Or maybe, just maybe, we discover Neo is really just a character in action movies thrust into a long and overly-philosophical plot written by the Wachowski brothers in a strange effort to justify lots of really cool kung-fu fighting and make a bundle of money on the side. That would be trippy. It would almost be like a Matrix within a Matrix. . .

I hope some of that makes sense. I have a cold and I'm dizzy.

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From: russ
Date: Thu Oct 28 08:32:49 MST 2004 Subject: First Response

I'm gonna write two responses, since there are two distinct things I want to say.

First, about my obsession with the Matrix: Yes, I am obsessed. And yes, it has been overused. But I don't quote it out of a desire to be "relevant." It's more about the fact that I've seen it so often, and I enjoy it so much, that it becomes a natural part of how I express that class of ideas. I didn't write the quote in order to be cool; I wrote it because it's exactly the quote that popped into my head when I was thinking about this.

I guess I could have opened with "I think, therefore I am," but that just doesn't have the same punch, to me. Besides, I don't agree with that quote, anyhow. It puts the focus on the individual experience again, and discounts the communal. I might go with "I am in commnity, therefore I am," but I don't think any famous philosohper ever said that.

Some people may quote Descartes; I quote Morpheus. And yes, I know that it's rather sad that the philosopher I know best is a character in a movie...

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From: russ
Date: Thu Oct 28 08:55:18 MST 2004 Subject: Second Response

I agree that we have to struggle with how to show respect to all types of Christians, including the "traditional" church that many of us grew up in.

We are finite beings, in a particular context. God has shown us many things that we need to know in this context. But other Christians, in other contexts, also know things - including things that we have missed.

We (in this little community) tend to have a revolutoinary mindset. But revolutionaries tend to destroy not only what is bad, but also what is good. A classic example is the Reformation. They were revolutoinaries within the Catholic context, and did a lot of good things. But in the process, they also threw out some good things, like the Catholic church's love for the arts. For hundreds of years, the best artists of all sorts were generally working for the church; it was considered a form of worship like any other. Now, our generation of revolutionaries (the "emergent church") is putting the arts back into worship. We are undoing one of the mistakes of the Reformation.

So we have to expect that we are going to make mistakes as well. We're finite, and fallen, and we can't avoid it. But we need to consciously protect that which is good in the old, and not destroy everything in our revolutionary fervor.

As for people who are proposing "new" ideas, like God is a woman, we also have to show them love and respect. Perhaps their ideas are the new things God is going to show us. Yet we must also be careful. We are called to live wholly in our current context, not to live in our guesses about what the next context will be.

I think that when God shows a culture "new" ideas, he gives, along with the ideas, some sort of confirmation that the idea is actually from him. I'm not going to try to describe here what that confirmation looks like, since I don't know. But I have confidence that if we look earnestly and humbly at "new" ideas, God will give us the wisdom to tell the "right" ones from the "wrong" ones.

Oh, and yeah, you're welcome to use the blog in your book. Just make a note somewhere that I wrote it, so that if I ever include it in a book of my own, I won't be accused of plagiarism. :)

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From: eric
Date: Sat Nov 13 20:11:26 MST 2004 Subject: onward and upward

I am certainly not able to write my thoughts as well as the above Philosophers of the Village, but I thought I'd add my two cents. Language and metaphor are often the cause of many of our problems . . . along with the need to be right and the thought that we are capable of objective thinking. Much of the church's problems stem from our view of authority. Who is in authority? Who has the right to say what is true? The Enlightenment and the Reformation moved authority from the institution to individual, and so, I am right? Me! Postmodern thinking started the deconstruction of our ability to calm objective right me-ness, and has begun to put in its place subjective who ever is in power me-ness. Truth is relative, but very true if I can force you to believe it or at least acknowledge it and live by it. Bill Clinton and George Bush have something in common, they are the first two truly postmodern Presidents. They have force their version of truth on us by simply deconstructing the current version of truth and reconstruction it to serve their purposes.
.......
Note on God as a woman. God as woman is no more exciting to me, than God as man or male or father or mother or chicken or hen or etc.
Note on the traditional church and the emergent church. Again, this is a language problem. Probably a major language problem! Think of it this way. When I say word of God - a Baptist responses . . . the bible and a Lutheran says Jesus. Are both on the right path. Yes, but the Lutheran is being more biblical in his language and the Baptist more cultural. The difference in each statement is nuanced and loaded with very different applications that lead to some of the same practices.

Finding God in WWJD or The Purpose Driven God
Critique from the inside is Good. “Christianity Today” just published an article about the emergent church. It wasn’t all that nice . . . almost as bad as our critiques of WWJD. Only it was written by one of us emergent peoples. Of course, us protestants love to protest, and when we don’t have anything good to protest (or maybe everything we should protest takes to much effort), we protest each other. Protesting though, is not critique . . .

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From: rodhugen
Date: Fri Oct 29 08:01:25 MST 2004 Subject: hmmm...

So is our smugness innate? Is arrogance inherrent in the conversation? Each does what is right in his own eyes becomes the height of pride since it dictates that those who are assured of their 'rightness' have the right to ignore the voice of the less right or the not fully right. And if not ignore, at least overpower. But suppose they make, as Eric suggests, the most powerful right person the king. Don't the anti-kings immediately rise up? Don't those in the community who believe they have a righter right to the throne seek to take it and declare, if they sieze it, divine right to it?

In the movie Primary Colors, the Clinton character claims 'our ideas are better' which is the reason behind his right to immorally sieze power. We do that all the time. And even if we declare a king, it is still relativism that dictates how, when, why and for how long the king holds power. So we long for theocracy, but unfortunately God chooses to speak through people (or asses :-)) and then we still have to choose if the person or donkey we are hearing is truly God's representative. If we look at the prophets, our record is not great at listening to God's voice in people. So in the end we always do what is right in our own eyes. Even communally. The free will thing. It always comes around to that, I think. And we always choose badly.

If the upside down kingdom is about sacrifice and servanthood and smallness and humility then do we also treat other's ideas of God as better than our own and submit to those who would overpower us. What is the role of 'spiritual authority' in all of this?

Rod

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From: derek
Date: Fri Oct 29 09:34:35 MST 2004 Subject: Relative to God

We are all part of a creation, presumeably. This means that by definition, we are malleable and, therefore, relative. We are not empirical. We are relative to something else. Or someone else. So the question becomes, to what, or whom, are we relative? The traditional philosophical definition of God was the unmoved mover. He has an internal power supply. He is relative only to His own attributes and decisions. I believe the Bible is the account of God allowing Himself be affected by His creation. So, what affected God to create? Love? Love for creativity? Love for relation? Relation to us? Relation to His Son? If any of things are true, than goodness and positive direction are inherant to the system, as well. Or else God was affected by something negative, or perhaps just bored, which was innate within His being. Therefore, the Jews are neccessary to system to be a nation of priests to draw humanity back to God. A christ was neccessary to the system to kick us back in the right direction. Therefore, as Christians, we are neccessary to the system to draw all nations to Christ. Not we as individuals, but we in theory, we as the (to steal from Dennett's "Freedom Evolves") white blood cells of creation. So, yes, we are relative and cannot fully comprehend truth. Yes, we are fallen and chose to abandon worship of our creator. Yet, prophets are also inherent to the system to kick our butts. Asses must be able to talk. Rocks must be able to cry out. Or else, God is not omnipotent or omniscient or good. I don't to fall back to answering again the problem of pain. I want to point out that we are not just relative. We are relative to God. And God will not abandon us nor forsake us. It sucks that I gain the favor of the masses because I've read more philosophy than they have, but God also implanted a desire to love and serve others within me. In the end, I have to believe that if God destines Christians for anything great, he will move through even us jackasses to speak truth, or perhaps just to listen to a new idea about God and actually contemplate it's meaning. I'll post more on that later, I'm already late for work . . . Dang it.

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From: russ
Date: Fri Oct 29 15:40:08 MST 2004 Subject: Wow

Wow. An amazing amount of cool stuff happening here. I keep wanting to reply to some comment...but there is so much, I'm just going to write it here at the root and reply to it all.

ERIC:

It's true that postmodernism has come to be about power. But that is only because they didn't approach the problem from a Godly, self-sacrificing, relational way. Some, as (I'm told) Nietzsche did, head off into nihilism, and try to live as though nothing exists. But others recognize that humans must live in a reality (of some sort) and so decide the power is the answer. To them, "reality" is simply defined by he who has the power to enforce his own perception of reality.

In a way, I'm ok with that idea - given that God is the one with all the real power.

But when it comes to human relationships and human perspectives, there's nothing Christian about that. We are called to be selfless, gentle, and (in some relationships) even submissive. It's not about power. It's about the upside-down kingdom. This brings me to comment on Rod's stuff...

ROD:

Smugness is exactly the problem! Smugness divorces us from relationship, from complexity, and from tension.

I really want to respond to your thoughts about how kings are selected, and I keep trying to type something...then have to delete it. For some reason, I don't think I'm supposed to comment on it, other than to say I think you're making a lot of good points.

DEREK:

It's really hard to know how to respond to what you wrote. It was a beautiful summary of what it's like to live in this world; to experience the doubleness of being both profoundly evil and also profoundly called to goodness.

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