Villagersonline : blogs : russ : Necessary Beliefs

From: russ
Date: Sun Dec 12 12:59:13 MST 2004
Subject: Necessary Beliefs

Responses
Karen: Thinking this over (12/14/04)
eric: Belief that is . . . (12/16/04)

dbonilla: Imitation of Christ (12/17/04)

GaryG: careful with that (12/19/04)

GaryG: Bottom line (12/19/04)

Boojeee: I agree with Gary (12/19/04)

paulmo: My 2 pence (12/19/04)

eric: Paul moment? (12/20/04)

Responses (sorted by date)
eric: Paul moment? (12/20/04)
paulmo: My 2 pence (12/19/04)
Boojeee: I agree with Gary (12/19/04)
GaryG: Bottom line (12/19/04)
GaryG: careful with that (12/19/04)
dbonilla: Imitation of Christ (12/17/04)
eric: Belief that is . . . (12/16/04)
Karen: Thinking this over (12/14/04)

Lots of people (including myself) have tried to figure out some sort of baseline, which describes the minimum beliefs that people have to hold in order to be "really" a Christian. But how many of those creeds would have excluded all of the early Christians? Would Peter, in the first few decades of his ministry, have agreed with (or even understood) a lot of the things we think are just basic and necessary?

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From: Karen
Date: Tue Dec 14 16:34:11 MST 2004
Subject: Thinking this over

I need to think about this more. Will comment next week, when I'm not so dang busy. (Or maybe even later...)

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From: eric
Date: Wed Dec 15 22:31:47 MST 2004
Subject: Belief that is . . .

I'm not sure that what I have to say really fits into this section, but Russ’s blogs are always a fun place to post my obscure thoughts. The baseline . . . the dogma . . . the it that we must all believe is at best, very elusive. What makes a person a follower of Jesus? What do they believe? Eh, these questions are not really useful or "necessary." What does someone have to grasp onto or apprehend about Jesus and God to participate in the Community of Jesus(You know the church). This question, I think, better directs the conversation towards something useful and helpful. I think that it is important for us to understand the practices of following Jesus before we grasp any kind dogma or "truth." The apostle Paul suggest that the foundation of the church is Jesus Christ and Him crucified(It must be assumed that if you were trying or thinking about following Jesus. . . you probably believe he had something to do with God). If Jesus is the foundation, then the question becomes - what is more important . . . the belief that he was fully God, fully man, and died for your sins, or the imitation of Christ by sacrificing things, time, money, etc for the sake of empowering other people.
To practice the way of Jesus will continually bring you face to face with Jesus and his identity.
Eric

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From: dbonilla
Date: Fri Dec 17 12:59:24 MST 2004
Subject: Imitation of Christ

You forgot to put a question mark after your penultimate sentence but I will answer anyway.
Obviously it is more important to imitate Christ than to believe the gospel. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble (James 2:19). I almost went back and deleted the word "obviously. What you believe IS important. But some who do not believe that Jesus was fully God, fully man, and died for our sins may do a good job of imitating Him intentionally for God's glory or not. If the motivation is for his own glory then it is a poor, superficial imitation of Christ.
By the way, the term "imitation" that Eric uses here does not mean fake or counterfeit. It derives from "The Imitation of Christ", a book by Thomas a Kempis (b. 1379 or 1380, d. 1471). It is used as a synonym for emulation. It is scriptural because Jesus said "greater works will you do" (John 14), "do as I have done" by washing each other's feet, etc. So my imitation of Christ is basically basically my walk with the Lord.
Here's a trick question: Why is it ok to want to be like the 2nd Adam when the 1st Adam was punished for wanting to be like God?

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From: GaryG
Date: Sun Dec 19 07:33:12 MST 2004
Subject: careful with that

Hmm...Dennis, I think you need to be careful with that statement "obviously it is more important to imitate Christ than to believe the Gospel". Consider the context of the James verse-he was trying to spur on those who HAD faith into putting their faith in action (in the form of service to the poor), but would these deeds WITHOUT faith be of any value in the end? If you think so, you are treading in the area of works righteousness. Remember, in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul identified the basic Gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection as being of first importance. I would argue that faith is the foundation that being transformed into a Christ-like character is built upon, without that faith you are left with only the filthy rags of your own works. I would rather face God with minimal works of my own but faith in Christ, than face him without faith on the strength of my own works, regardless of their number. Of course if you are referring to orthodoxy of belief, I would again rather face God with faith in the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice, even if I had struggles with His deity or other issues. Becoming like Christ is a process, and it is different for everyone in terms of how much growth and how quickly this transformation takes place, remember that being a Christian is a spiritual reality that is not always visible in the physical realm, "your life is hidden in Christ". The popular "monkey see, monkey do" perception of Christianity is an oversimplification of what it means to be a Christian, in my opinion. I believe to "walk as Jesus did" means to walk in fellowship with the Father, and this means different things for different people, if we take that passage literally we are all doomed for lack of perfection and miracles! I believe that when Jesus told the APOSTLES (a promise to them, not necessarily to us, and remember the context-dealing with Philip's desire to be SHOWN the Father)that he who believes would do "greater things", He was referring mainly to the growth of the Church they would see in their lifetime, as their healings/miracles certainly did not surpass those of Jesus, but the sheer number of converts in the early church did surpass the ministry of Jesus (as in Acts 2-in one day!) So, that's my take-the Holy Spirit transforms us over time (not our own efforts to put a leash on the flesh), but faith is the catalyst that puts this process into action. BTW, I miss all of you, hope you have a Merry Christmas!
Gary

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From: GaryG
Date: Sun Dec 19 13:01:48 MST 2004
Subject: Bottom line

A more succinct way of saying what I just said: you can't put Jesus Christ the role model above Jesus Christ the Savior...

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From: Boojeee
Date: Sun Dec 19 15:02:51 MST 2004
Subject: I agree with Gary

Hope you have a merry christmas, too.
Julie

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From: paulmo
Date: Sun Dec 19 16:26:15 MST 2004
Subject: My 2 pence

Just another couple of thoughts to throw in here. The very first creed pre-councils was simply "Jesus Is Lord" and a belief in his teaching, death and resurrection. Discussions on the nature of his authority, his relationship to God and other doctrines were first hammered out by Paul on the fly as he was trying to wrangle the early church, and then the councils began formalizing other teachings and doctrines after long, intensive and prayerful sessions.
Here's another angle. The Eastern Church is the only body that can trace it's lineage directly back to Christ and the apostles. Both the Catholic and Protestant churches are relatively new Western branches of that ancient faith. The Eastern Church places church tradition (teachings, words from the saints, and councils) above even Scripture since they say that the Church actually gave rise to Scripture, and not the other way around. All that to say, the Eastern Church would say that any Christian beliefs are meaningless and without context when interpreted outside the Church, since the Church body gave them birth. So, their baseline is participation in the Church tradition which gives rise to true belief.
Personally, I think that at it's core, Christian living is simple -- a need, a desire, a hunger for Jesus. From the tightest conservative to the loosest liberal, Jesus is the pinnacle. He is someone to be followed, imitated, modeled after, and submitted to. I've lost a lot of respect at many points for Christendom, but never Christ. He remains as compelling at a gut level to me as he ever has. When I became a Christian in tenth grade, I said in my prayer "I promise that I will always try to find what is true, not just for me and my world, but for everyone no matter who they are or where they are", and Christ and his being have never failed that test.

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From: eric
Date: Sun Dec 19 22:58:45 MST 2004
Subject: Paul moment?

Wow, Mr. Moment that was great. Good to hear from ya.

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