Villagersonline : blogs : eric : Thursday heresy . . .
villagersonline
A Community Tunneling Protocol
The Village meets at 5pm Sundays
1926 N. Cloverland Ave. map

Links
(edit) The Village Cancer Relief Fund;


From: eric
Date: Thu Mar 4 11:37:42 MST 2004 Subject: Thursday heresy . . .

Responses
stevek: kingdom (3/5/04)
eric: Kingdom Response (3/5/04)
keibru: hmmm.... (3/5/04)
stevek: more (3/6/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
stevek: more (3/6/04)
keibru: hmmm.... (3/5/04)
eric: Kingdom Response (3/5/04)
stevek: kingdom (3/5/04)
The Gospel
Is the Gospel timeless? Is what it means to be "saved" or "redeemed" evolving through time? Are we trying to take the cross and Kingdom and force them into a box that insists on a one size fits all concept.

God as a changeless being, is that what we really want? Is that what we really need? I'm not suggesting that God is a "frivolous God" - given to flights of fancy. Jen Lemen, in one of her blogs reflects on the personality of God:

i just have this image in my head of god as a consummate artist, and i cannot imagine any artist worth her salt deciding to stop creating. and i can't imagine any true artist not being somehow moved and fundamentally changed by her art. how does that kind of creativity stop, and then wait for a predicted, decided outcome?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Gospel Jesus Preached?
Jesus challenged power structures? Are politics and religion to be seperate? First century Jews would have laughed at the suggestion. Try telling that to a Roman emperor, worshipping national gods meant people worshipped him. When Jesus offers a Gospel that poses a threat to the existing power structures, he was not offering a simple alternative political solution. He was offering a new way of living and thinking . . . a new world.

When the state is made a god, it becomes a demon. Think about this, we talk about the "forces of economics or of political theories. How about the forces of anger and sensuality? We often say these forces are impossible to resist. NT Wright, when talking about forces in our world, says:

When Jesus dies as a failed, bizarre, nonpolitical political Messiah, Pilate embodies for a moment the apparent triumph of Satan over Jesus. "This is your hour," says Jesus to the soldiers in the garden. "This is your hour, and the power of darkness." Satan had offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world on one condition, that he fall down and worship him. Jesus had refused to do so and the cross is the direct result of that refusal. The kingdoms of the world reject him, and kill him. And not only Rome, either. There was no room for Jesus not only in the Roman empire of his day, but also in the official Judaism of the day.

An interesting Fact: Judaism and Rome sent Jesus to the cross: the greatest religion and the best political and governmental system that the world had ever seen.

Jesus did battle with demons - they were not all evil spirits. The battle was also with those who ruled the world at the time – those who put together the world in such a way that there was no place for Jesus. So Jesus didn't come to offer a political alternative, but to break the grip the powers have and had on the world. He offers something new. Anew world where God is God and humans can be set free to be humans. Think about what Paul says in Col 2:

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

What do I think about the Lord's Prayer?
In many ways, it is a prayer that affirms and calls into action the Kingdom of God. It is a reminder of what life is like in the New World. But I also believe that it is an Old World Prayer - meaning pre-cross. It is a prayer that looks forward to Christ's death and resurrection. I can now forgive those who have wronged me because I live in the new free world. I only need my daily bread because; I live in the New World. I can call Jesus Abba because I live in the New World. I invoke the Kingdom’s will and thrust it out against the powers that are still rearing their ugly defeated heads.

Eric

Edit this blog
Write a response Email the author



From: stevek
Date: Thu Mar 4 17:20:35 MST 2004 Subject: kingdom

Is the Gospel timeless? It should be if it's truely from a God Who stands outside of time. What we do with it is bound by our own temporal and cultural vision, but the Good News that Jesus brought speaks beyond what we can see, or dream of. Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard nor mind conceived what God has in store...
Is 'saved' and 'redeemed' evolving through time? Doctrine evolves, but doctrine isn't necessarily a reflection of truth. The fact of salvation and redemption has no need of evolving. It just is, as God just Is. What we do with salvation and redemption needs to evolve if it is to remain relevant in an evolving culture. But that's just a change of look, not an alteration of the underlying fact.
Are we putting the kingdom in a box insisting on one size fitting all? If 'we' put the kingdom anywhere, it has by definition to be in a box, because our minds are boxed in. But the true Kingdom of God slops over the sides of our small boxes and envelopes all of creation, for all of time -even today. He isn't some eternal entity to be encountered some time out there - He is more a perpetual Presence, available for us to encounter each moment we live and breath by His grace. We have no right to 'put' His Kingdom within our own necessarily limited scope. He calls us to receive and touch and share whatever we can of the sliver of what His Kingdom really is that we are able within our limitations.
God as changeless - is that what we want? Is it what we need? Who said He's changeless? Creation and recreation involve and even call out change in the existing state of things. What is changeless in God is His character and holiness, not what He does. We change, and we're made in His image. He is alive in Christians, and we are alive in Him. In that there better be relationship based on and manifesting change, or we're not "becoming" Christlike over time. God has declared that that's what we need; if not, Christ's redemtive death was a wasted effort.
Jesus challenged power structures. Yes - and He offered a new power structure based on the essence of the Creator; that is, Agape. That is the 'new way of living and thinking...
How about the forces of anger and sensuality? How about the forces of envy, pride, boastefulness, self, and the like? Or how about the forces of love, peace, joy, goodness, kindness, patience, faithfulness, self-control and gentleness? Christ wasn't a "failed, bizarre, nonpolitical political Messiah." The fruit of His Holy Spirit is the new world He brought. That's not failure on His part. We fail if we don't receive it as a gift of His grace, and then respond to His commission to take that evidence of His Kingdom into this world, today.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: eric
Date: Thu Mar 4 23:01:50 MST 2004 Subject: Kingdom Response

---He isn't some eternal entity to be encountered some time out there - He is more a perpetual Presence, available for us to encounter each moment we live and breath by His grace. We have no right to 'put' His Kingdom within our own necessarily limited scope.

Nietzsche says that as long as we have words we believe in God. Our words limit us in our ability to describe God, but they are how we describe our experience of God. Karl Barth says that Revelation, is the "Truth unveiling itself in its veiledness." We are at a loss to describe God and so we must try. All we have is our limited scope, and so we must talk in it. We use words. Our entire reality and faith and life are based on words. Jesus is even described as the word.

Who said He's changeless? Well, scripture has some strong arguments in that direction.

Jesus might not be a failed Messiah to us, but he is certainly to the outside world. He was to the Romans and the Jews of his time.

More later

eric

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: keibru
Date: Fri Mar 5 12:58:46 MST 2004 Subject: hmmm....

...what steve said.

Edit this response
Write a response



From: stevek
Date: Fri Mar 5 17:18:36 MST 2004 Subject: more

ok, but quoting the final sentence in my paragraph would more fully make my point; that is, "He calls us to receive and touch and share whatever we can of the sliver of what His Kingdom really is THAT WE ARE ABLE WITHIN OUR LIMITATIONS." The point is that however we describe God is necessarily partial, limited and insufficient. True enough, we must use words to describe. So we talk in 'our limited scope.' But in doing so we must also resist the temptation to assume that scope is all encompassing. My point was that if we make that assumption, then yes, we do put His Kingdom into our box. So let's use words, but allow for the understanding that they can only describe the indescribable in part. Jesus was/is Word - that's not a grammatical term. It is in fact Logos - God's creative work, still unfolding. If we turn to an existentialist (Nietzsche) for our guidance on unfolding the mystery of Christ, we'll also find quotes such as:
"In reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on a cross."
"I fear we are not getting rid of god beacuse we still believe in grammer."
"What is good? - Power in man."
"Christianity is the one immortal blemish on mankind."
and,
"Let me descend into my tomb as an honest pagan. Allow no priest to utter falsehoods at my grave while I am unable to defend myself."
I'll take Logos every time over that - God's creative work, which as I tried to maintain above necessarily involves change. Change in the manifestation of what He does over time. Not in Who He is. Does the nature of God change? No. Scripture does argue that point. God isn't described in His Word as becoming less holy, or becoming depraved in character. But the manifestation of those characteristics is varied and wonderfully vibrant examples of how His Kingdom comes to us daily. Whether or not "we really want" or "really need" a God of any sort isn't really our decision. We don't make God - well, I guess Nietzsche did, but only lower case "g" god. I Am kind of trumps that, though. And so similarily whether or not Jesus was viewed as 'failed' by those who put Him to death was to be expected. Had they 'gotten it' the cross wouldn't have been a necessary part of God's plan. Rome, Jews, me - right, in our limited ability to understand god, we failed to see God. And so He died, so we may live. That's our failure, not His.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author


Write a blog
Latest Updates

blogs (upload)
eric: Parenting thoughts (8/11/14)
sunnygirl7d: Reuben fishing blog (1 resp) (8/8/14)
samantha: My new blog (8/11/14)
eric: New Website (8/7/14)
dbonilla: Annie Moses Band (3/14/14)
Suki: Ash Wednesday (3/5/14)
andrea: Good news update! (1 resp) (2/3/14)
Carena: More moving help (2/1/14)
Carena: A Friend in Need (3 resp) (1/25/14)
em: Tell me how I can pray (1/24/14)
andrea: Need for Volunteers-Foster Car... (1/19/14)
andrea: suffering (1/7/14)
rodhugen: Two quotes (2 resp) (1/3/14)
cwill: Please pray (2 resp) (1/26/24)
Carena: Polaroid Camera (12/23/13)

pictures (upload)
Suki: Vespers Dec 2012 (1/26/24)
eric: Ordination (3/16/14)
Suki: Soup Supper 2012 (3/17/14)
eric: Belonging 2012 (1/7/14)
eric: sabbath (3/16/14)

bios (upload)
Mike_Wise (1/16/13)
james (11/14/12)
clrclady (1/28/12)
SPark (11/27/11)
benjipark (12/2/10)

music (upload)
Frosted Flakes :
Everywhere j2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Flakes :
New Found Hope J2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Fla es :
Trinity Jan2014 (1/16/14)
Skeptic Chickens :
No Condemnation (7/29/13)
Karen and Friends :
Breastplate May 5 (5/10/13)

sermons (upload)
Eric,Ron Layman: The Disciplines RL (3/6/14)
Eric: Habakkuk Part One (1/16/14)
Eric: Noah's Ark (9/27/13)
Eric: The Fall (9/13/13)
Rod: Creation (9/13/13)

Villagersonline.com 2010
Contact Us
(edit) Site Meter
Free Search Engine Submission
Free Search Engine Submission

"Best Viewed at 1024x768 under the light of the full moon in July while Mercury is in Leo
and six pigmy marmosets do the lambada behind you singing Kumbaya" -- User Friendly