Villagersonline : blogs : eric : Thinking: that is the point!!

From: eric
Date: Fri Mar 12 09:42:44 MST 2004
Subject: Thinking: that is the point!!

Responses
stevek: "evil" (3/10/04)

eric: took the bait eh (3/11/04)

stevek: sin (3/11/04)

russ: A plethora of questions (3/12/04)

chad: What does it mean that God changes his mind? (3/12/04)
russ: Another random possibility (3/12/04)

Karen: Our concept of time/destiny (3/12/04)

eric: God, Evil, Repentance (3/12/04)

Responses (sorted by date)
eric: God, Evil, Repentance (3/12/04)
Karen: Our concept of time/destiny (3/12/04)
russ: Another random possibility (3/12/04)
chad: What does it mean that God changes his mind? (3/12/04)
russ: A plethora of questions (3/12/04)
stevek: sin (3/11/04)
eric: took the bait eh (3/11/04)
stevek: "evil" (3/10/04)

Read Exodus 32:1-14. It has some very interesting thoughts in it. After a little conversation with Moses, God repents of the evil He was going to do. God intended to do evil. Is that possible? Could God be classified as an evil doer? Yes and No . . . I think. But before we get to that - note that God does change. Now granted, that change was a change of mindset. Moses gets through to God and "God repents of the evil that God had planned to bring about on the people. God does change his planned interaction with us. Cool!! He is in relationship with me, and is looking for a response . . . a conversation.
Back to God as an evil doer . . . Scripture is pretty clear that God does not repent of sin. But scripture is also clear that we are not to commit evil ourselves. If you read Romans, it will soon become clear to you that committing evil yourself is not a good idea.
So if God can commit evil and not sin, then maybe you and I might need to rethink evil and its meanings. If you take a basic philosophy class, you will have to deal with something call the "problem of evil." Problems suggest solutions, and yes, there is a solution to evil - but there is also a reason why we pray for God to deliver us from evil. For us to simply say, "Jesus is the answer to Evil," is to live in an escapist world. Evil is simply all the pain and suffering and destruction and injustice you and I must face. Yes, Jesus will end the reign of evil, but you and I are impacted by it daily. I think we need to recognize it in ourselves and also understand that living in this world means we will have deal with its impact in our lives. Many times, I think Jesus watches evil’s impact and weeps.
Israel disobeyed God and the result was to be an act of justice on God's part - which would come in the form of evil: pain and suffering for the disobedient.
These are just a few of my thoughts today. They are just thoughts for you to respond to. Please feel free to disagree with me. I am not attached to them.

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From: stevek
Date: Wed Mar 10 15:15:15 MST 2004
Subject: "evil"

ok/took the bait again...
About 12 chapters earlier in Exodus, God lays down 10 Commandments. The Israelites violated the first 2 while waiting for Moses in chapter 32. Those were not trivia, as God shows in His reaction. He was serious about our building up idols in our lives and worshipping them instead of honoring Him first. So, without reneging on His comittment to Moses to build up a great nation through him (read v. 10), the creator declares that He'll begin again with a new, more God-fearing people. Is that 'evil' or is it an example of justice from a holy God? It is Moses anticipating what the Egyptians would say (v. 12) where it's called evil. God doesn't describe it that way. Also, the word 'repent' (to turn in another direction) doesn't necessarily imply that your first direction (God's in this case) was sinful. It's a choice, and in most circumstances we're not confronted with a single acceptable option. God didn't put himself in check-mate when He declared His wrath against the idolators whom He had just freed from bondage. We're punished by God for our own idolatry - but that's not sin on His part, it's a reaction from Him to our own sin. Newer translations use the word 'relent', not 'repent.' That to me gives a clearer picture (less tainted by our modern perception of what 'repentence' implies about our own sinfullness) of what God was doing. Look at Jeremiah 18:7-10. There God makes it clear that He can be caused to change His intended plans if His people will turn back to Him. He relented in Amos 7:1-6. He relented in 2 Samuel 24:16. In each case, God was reacting to a change in the behavior of those to whom His wrath would have been directed. He did not relent in the case of Noah. That's the prerogative of a soverign and holy God. It's also a picture of His hearing our prayer (Moses' in this case) and reacting to the changes He sees in us. He does hear the cries of our hearts and is a compassionate God - but will not be mocked by our insincerity if that's the basis of our prayers. God doesn't "repent of sin" but relents from the planned destruction of those who were in sin. That's mercy. Pain and suffering are not necessarily "evil." They may result from evil being done, but they in and of themselves are not that. Nor is destruction necessarily "evil" if it's done for the greater good of, and by a holy and soverign God. When we inflict it, yes. But we're not the Potter. The Potter is just, and for Him to destroy and begin again may certainly be done justly when in reaction to disobedience. Absolutely we need to deal with the evil that exists within ourselves, as well as the impact that our evil has on the world/people around us. But we do that to honor our God Who has called us to 'do justly, show mercy and walk humbly before our God.' And who is the epitome of justice and mercy? God. And He shows that in the case of Exodus 32 where He relents from inflicting justice on a disobedient people - He shows mercy, not repentence from sin. What idols do we create that need to be melted down? Lots. And God is merciful in not dealing out what we deserve at each instance of our evil. Just as in the Exodus 32 verses it describes the behavior of the Israelites as having 'corrupted themselves,' we do the same. It's not God who is corrupt.

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From: eric
Date: Wed Mar 10 23:10:30 MST 2004
Subject: took the bait eh

I never said God was repenting from sin. I think I stated that it was impossible for God to sin.
Repent: a deep sigh, or to turn away or from and do the opposite.
In Moses' case, the people had not really changed their behavior.
eric

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From: stevek
Date: Thu Mar 11 15:49:14 MST 2004
Subject: sin

Agreed - there is noplace in the opening blog where it is stated that God sins. But, it is implied that "God can commit evil and not sin." Can 'evil' be 'good?' Doesn't the use of the term imply sin at some level? If not, then I agree, we need to redefine the term. If we cannot wrestle sin out from under the umbrella of that which is evil, then we need to answer how He can commit evil. In Him there is no darkness. Jesus said that the Father alone is essentially 'good.' How then can He in His essence also entertain that which cannot be good? Then, evil in who's eyes? Was what He intended to do evil in the eyes of man (Moses, the writer) and not in fact evil at all, but an act of justice by a holy (wholly other) God? Let's expand it beyond evil - can He make a mistake, whether or not it's evil? Does God ever say 'oops?' Mistakes aren't necessarily bad, dark, or evil. But perfection is an absolute. That doesn't seem to leave room for 'do-overs,' or evil. I'll spray some Pam in my ears and see if it clears all of this up.

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From: russ
Date: Thu Mar 11 17:11:12 MST 2004
Subject: A plethora of questions

Without attempting to actually answer any of these questions, I wanted to observe that this discussion, at the very least, should case us to have to really deeply examine our basic assumptions about lots of things dealing with God and the Bible. It seems likely that we don't yet understand something important...

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From: chad
Date: Thu Mar 11 20:09:41 MST 2004
Subject: What does it mean that God changes his mind?

I am not writing a response that seeks to explain exactly what the Bible means when it says that God "repents" or "changes his mind." There are verses in the Bible that indicate that in some way God changes his mind and that in some way that he does not. We need to be very careful about how we understand these verses. The issue is not WHETHER the Bible says that God changes his mind in some way, but the issue is what exactly does the Bible mean when it says that God changes his mind? My concern is with those who want to make a one to one correlation between the way human beings change their minds and the way God changes his mind. After all, God was not made in the image of man. Man was made in the image of God. So we are not to look to man to understand God. We are not to look to how man changes his mind to understand how God changes his. We are to look to God first. The reason I am so concerned about what it means that God changes his mind is that it has radical implications on my relationship with him. God may change his mind is some ways, but if he changes his mind IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY that man does, then there are some frightening implications for God, especially with respect to his foreknowledge:
If God changes his mind in the same way that man does, doesn't that raise the question as to whether he really knows what he's doing? It challenges the idea that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all events. It implies that God did not know how his people would respond to him and that his change of mind was a reaction to an unexpected (and unforeseen) response from his people. Doesn't God know what I am going to do/think in advance so he can plan how he is going to react to me in advance? Can I surprise God? Can I sneak up on him and scare him? How can I trust a God who doesn't really seem to know what's going on? How can I trust a God to protect me from harm if he himself doesn't seem to be able to predict the actions/responses of people that could ultimately be harmful to me? Isn't God in control? Doesn't he know? If God changes his mind about one thing, how do I know he will not change his mind about the promises he has made in Scripture? How do I know he will save those who believe in Christ? How can God be relied upon to guide the future according to his will if he can't accurately foresee things that might serve to frustrate his plans? Can God be trusted if he is so apparently fickle? Can I trust a God who changes his mind in the same way that man does?
Chad

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From: russ
Date: Fri Mar 12 09:03:56 MST 2004
Subject: Another random possibility

I was reading this passage last night, and I was struck by how, after having the conversation with God, Moses goes through the same sort of process. He goes down into the camp, is shocked by the sin he sees, and immediately executes violent judgement on the Israelites. (At his orders, Levites kill 3000.) Then, afterwards, he says to the people that he will go up the mountain again to see if he can make atonement for their sin.
So, is Moses going through some sort of two-step process, where he first confronts God's judgement in the abstract (and begs for mercy), then confronts the reality of sin (and executes judgement himself)?
Or is it possible that the story is a single event, told twice? Perhaps the whole conversation between God & Moses in the first part of the chapter is happening concurrently with Moses's actions down below...

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From: Karen
Date: Fri Mar 12 10:32:37 MST 2004
Subject: Our concept of time/destiny

I don't have my Bible here to re-check this passage for myself, but I think you're onto something, Russ. It reminds me of the "two" creation stories in Genesis. Or of William Faulkner's novels, different points of view on the same event. Maybe from the human point of view, it could seem God "changes his mind"?? Thinking back to Genesis again, that's a major element in the Abraham conversation regarding Sodom & Gomorrah: "Don't nuke Lot's city." I think that all these stories do imply a dynamic relationship between God and humanity, not a rigidly predetermined one, although I'm not sure how to put that in neat theological terms, especially not ones that fit in with Calvin's theology :-)

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From: eric
Date: Fri Mar 12 10:46:36 MST 2004
Subject: God, Evil, Repentance

Great Conversation! O.k., so here are a few more things to think about. God is sovereign over his creation. Sovereign implies that he rules and is in control of this creation. God reigns supreme in the universe. He is over all things whether they visible or invisible, whether they are spirits or humans, whether they are animal or inanimate (Colossians 1:15-17)
God Rules over evil:
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
God even creates individuals to waste and destroy
"I have created the waster to destroy (Isaiah 54:16).
Evil, a creative work of God?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace. and create evil: [the Lord do all these things’ (Isaiah 45:7).
Thoughts of Repentance of God and Reconciliation.
"If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you. and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you" (Jeremiah 42:10).
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
You and I are called to the ministry of reconciliation. We are to be reconciled to God, but reconciliation takes two people. Is it possible that when we repent of evil, God repents of the way he has been dealing with us? Is Christ the first step in the repentance process for God?
I agree with Chad, a changing God who can't make up his mind from day to day is rather scary and our chances of survival and redemption are pretty slim.
Thoughts on Satan
What do you think?
Was Satan created to be Evil?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44). From the very start of his creation, Satan was a liar. He was a sinner. "The devil sinneth from the beginning" (I John 3:8).

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