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From: derek
Date: Fri Jul 16 20:53:26 MST 2004 Subject: Relativism

Responses
benjipark: Hello??? (7/17/04)
derek: No Subject (7/17/04)
SueKay: response (7/17/04)
eric: No Subject (7/17/04)
SueKay: What? (7/17/04)
derek: No Subject (7/17/04)
russ: Communal Formulation (7/18/04)
derek: words (7/18/04)
eric: Descartes (7/18/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
eric: Descartes (7/18/04)
derek: words (7/18/04)
russ: Communal Formulation (7/18/04)
derek: No Subject (7/17/04)
SueKay: What? (7/17/04)
eric: No Subject (7/17/04)
SueKay: response (7/17/04)
derek: No Subject (7/17/04)
benjipark: Hello??? (7/17/04)
Quick questions:

I was in Teen Challenge chapel the other day and got learned in the fine art of logic and the objective discovery of truth. I believe in my lifetime (of 23 years), I have heard this presentation over 40 times in various forms. So, I know the argument fairly well, but I have some questions.

1. How does one attribute the "heresies" to Bertrand Russell and other philosophers who propose doubt as the basis for philosophy (as opposed to faith) without going back to place blame on Descartes? Follow-up question. . . How does Descartes relationship to philosophy influence his relationship with Christ (or vice versa)?

2. Isn't the argument that "saying all truth is relative is a self-defeating argument" itself self-defeating? If one has already stated that there is no absolute truth then how does someone make a plea to the absolutes of logic in order to show the argument as self-defeating. Logic itself is on trial. Can one actually use it as the basis of the argument?

3. The statement of "truth cannot be known" is dismissed as absurdity. This falls back onto the first question. If we are using the process of doubt, the necessary jump of Cartesian philosophy is that of "I think therefore I am." Yes, perhaps I must exist as some form which may think the thought (logically speaking), but this tells us nothing of the nature of that beast. So the statement "truth cannot be known" is a denial of the first leap of Cartesian philosophy, not a denial of all truth. The statement simply says that we should be careful about what we innately accept as absolute. Right?

4. Has anyone ever convinced a relativist to believe in absolute truth? Or, alternatively, for those of us who have laid nearer to the relativist base camp, what have we grown to accept as absolute truth in our walks with and toward God?

My Relativistic Answer:

My answer to the final question is what I often have to speak to myself in the midst my depressive episodes, when nothing looks or feels true anymore.

"I'm not sure that I exist, but if I do, I believe there is a god and that he seems pretty good." This is usually followed by me rolling my eyes looking up and giving Him a goofy smile.

So, does anyone have answers for me? Or am I simply an "insane postmodern, destined for hell?"

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From: benjipark
Date: Sat Jul 17 09:40:39 MST 2004 Subject: Hello???

Did you totally ignore the conversation on the phone? Are you trying to bait me into writting a response on the web site? Well I won't fall for your little trap!

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From: derek
Date: Sat Jul 17 11:14:07 MST 2004 Subject:

Benji. You are not the world.
There is possibility of people outside of your
head. If so, they may also have opinions or
observations outside of your own. I
wish to hear those expressed as well
as your own.

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From: SueKay
Date: Sat Jul 17 11:25:19 MST 2004 Subject: response

Once upon a time in my long ago past
Stepping stones led to inexorable conclusions
He is more than a carpenter
Demon, delusional, or God himself
No other options
Logic suspended by
Strands of web
Fading into the darkness

“Where is the wise man?
Where is the scribe?
Where is the debater of this age?
Has not God made foolish
The wisdom of the world?”

What is the mind of God?
What unimaginable logic lives there?
Tell me the logic of love
Which leads a God to sacrifice

“Some ask for signs
And some for wisdom
But we preach Christ crucified -
To the God-seekers a stumbling block
And to the atheists beyond absurd,
But to us
Power and wisdom,
This foolishness of God.”

Where is the golden key
To change my can’t to can,
My shadow to substance?
Persuasive words of wisdom
Have wrought few changes
In the percentages of this world

The kingdom of God does not live in words, but in action.

[passages in quotes are paraphrased from 1Cor. 2 I lost the poetry somewhere along the way. Oh well. I think I said most of what I was trying to say, although I didn’t talk about all my issues with this subject. If I am logical, and I am made in the image of God, then shouldn't God be logical as I am? (weak argument of course: could use the same using the word 'sinful') See end of I Cor chapter 2 for a taste of how convoluted it all gets in my brain – we are not wise, yet now we have the mind of Christ…]
- Susan (Keltner) Park

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From: eric
Date: Sat Jul 17 11:28:09 MST 2004 Subject:

"The chief defect of all previous materialism (that of Feuerbach included) is that things, reality, sensuousness are conceived only as the form of the object, or of contemplation, but not as sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively. Hence, in contradistinction to materialism, the active side was set forth abstractly by idealism—which, of course, does not know real, sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively." Marx I believe

Eric

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From: SueKay
Date: Sat Jul 17 12:14:32 MST 2004 Subject: What?

Was supposed to understand any of that?

- Susan

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From: derek
Date: Sat Jul 17 14:21:16 MST 2004 Subject:

I'm pretty sure it means:

We used to define stuff as just "being out there." We need to start defining stuff as "interacting with us." We don't know it is there except that we sense it. We see it, so there's something there to be seen. . .

Right?

I'm not sure about the phrase "which, of course, does not know real, sensuous human activity, practice, not subjectively." I think there might be words missing in the middle. :)

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From: russ
Date: Sat Jul 17 23:01:47 MST 2004 Subject: Communal Formulation

"I am in relationship, therefore I am"

What I might be outside of relationship is impossible to tell. I doesn't matter (to me, at least) what my "essence" is. To describe my essence, I would have to use language, and language can only be understood in the context of common experiences. Thus, any expression I made of my identity would inherently be communal. Therefore, my identity (as much as I can express it) is communal.

But is there something knowable that cannot be expressed by language? Perhaps. But how could I tell you that I knew it?

I know in ways I cannot express that I exist. I know that I am logical (as much as any human is) and that I talk to God. I know that this assertion has no (expressable) proof, and is no more logically defendable than any assertion to the contrary. But I am comfortable living in the chosen naivete that says that my beliefs are absolutely true.

Unless, of course, my community feels otherwise.

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From: derek
Date: Sat Jul 17 23:36:41 MST 2004 Subject: words

Russ, that is probably the best answer I've heard. It's logical, beautiful, and humble. Now all I need is for Christians to actually accept it without arguing against me. . .

Also, speaking of language:
I was looking at a poetry website that had an article about finding the "inner muse." It made a comment that fascinated me. It said that we "think in words." I find that scary. If that's true, what would it look like for a neandertal man, or early homo-sapien, before language had really begun to sprout? What would we look like as pure creatures of instinct? Of course, I could write a long blog about a deeper lack of free will, but that will save for a later time. . . .

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From: eric
Date: Sun Jul 18 08:29:05 MST 2004 Subject: Descartes

1. How does one attribute the "heresies" to Bertrand Russell and other philosophers who propose doubt as the basis for philosophy (as opposed to faith) without going back to place blame on Descartes? Follow-up question. . . How does Descartes relationship to philosophy influence his relationship with Christ (or vice versa)?

We may want to go back to Plato if we are going to blame someone.

Isn't the argument that "saying all truth is relative is a self-defeating argument" itself self-defeating? If one has already stated that there is no absolute truth then how does someone make a plea to the absolutes of logic in order to show the argument as self-defeating. Logic itself is on trial. Can one actually use it as the basis of the argument?

Modern thinking holds truth to be the highest good and logic to be the way to find it. Postmodern thinking simply takes truth off its absolute pedistal and replaces it with power. They would simply argue that the one in the power position is the one who dictates who's logic is logical and truths are absolute.

Has anyone ever convinced a relativist to believe in absolute truth? Or, alternatively, for those of us who have laid nearer to the relativist base camp, what have we grown to accept as absolute truth in our walks with and toward God?

It could be argued that God is in the Power position and dictates absolute truth. It may not be logical truth, but I must accept it on reject it. Christ comes and says he is the truth but gives me no logical reason why this is so. He simply calls me to follow. Truth can be absolute at one level and not on another. For example, I can say that a wooden chair is a solid piece of material that is safe to sit in - and this is an absolute truth - yet, if I look closer, I will discover that it is not solid material - it is a actually made up of slow moving molecules, and if I sit on it i might actually fall through.

Some of these excerpts below are from my own research in the past and others are stolen from history of Philosopy by alan woods. They shed a little light on Descartes and his influence on Philosophy.

The question of the relation of thought to being was posed by the French philosopher Descartes (1596-1650) in a different way to the English empiricists. Born into a moderately wealthy family, he had studied with the Jesuits. This taste of arid orthodoxy produced in him a lifetime’s aversion for dogmatism of any kind, and an impatience with received ideas. His scepticism, in contrast with the jaundiced pessimism of Hume, had a lively and positive character. He began to doubt, not the possibility of knowledge in general, but only the existing opinions put forward as infallible truths. From an early age, his motto was "Doubt everything."

"And, as I made it my business in each matter to reflect particularly upon what might fairly be doubted and prove a source of error, I gradually rooted out from my mind all the errors which had hitherto crept into it. Not that in this I imitated the skeptics who doubt only that they may doubt, and seek nothing beyond uncertainty itself; for, on the contrary, my design was singly to find ground of assurance, and cast aside the loose earth and sand, that I might reach the rock or the clay." (Descartes, Discourse on Method, p. 23)

While, in all probability, Descartes was a believer, when reading his works, one has the impression of a man all the time looking over his shoulder. In order to get round the Church, Descartes accepts the existence of God, but then says that religion is too lofty a subject to be "submitted to the impotency of our reason." When dealing with natural history, he accepts that God created the world, but then adds, as if hypothetically, that "it may be believed, without discredit to the miracle of creation, that, in this way alone, things purely material might, in course of time, have become such as we observe them at present; and their nature is much more easily conceived when they are beheld coming in this manner gradually into existence, than when they are only considered as produced at once in a finished and perfect state." (Ibid., p, 36.) To such subterfuges did the greatest French philosopher have to resort in order to publish his ideas.

Descartes' physics and biology seems to intrude on his thoughts and ideas. He is very excited about Harvy's discovery of circulation of blood, but when writing on how the mind and body are interlinked he ends up taking refuge in metaphysical concepts.

The problem with all this is that, if thought and matter are considered as completely separate, by what means are they united and kept together? The only option open to Descartes was to bring in an external agent—divine intervention. Even so, it is impossible to see how they can have any effect upon each other. By what mechanism could they interpenetrate? For example, the mind can will that I lift my arm, but how can it actually lift it? Descartes’ disciple, Geulinx, answered with admirable frankness that it could not, that the fact that the arm rises at the same time as I will it to was mere coincidence. This brings out the contradiction of the Cartesian philosophy, the unresolved dualism, which was its Achilles’ heel.

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