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From: clrclady
Date: Sat Jan 15 22:19:31 MST 2005 Subject: Follow this God

Responses
paulmo: Puts me in mind of a college class I took (1/20/05)
paulmo: Revision to my last post (1/21/05)
Boojeee: Compassionate One (1/21/05)
mike: You hit the mark (1/21/05)
Responses (sorted by date)
mike: You hit the mark (1/21/05)
Boojeee: Compassionate One (1/21/05)
paulmo: Revision to my last post (1/21/05)
paulmo: Puts me in mind of a college class I took (1/20/05)
As I was out in nature today, this is what my thoughts have traveled into. If it raises any thoughts, let me know.

Do I want to follow a God who has chosen to limit Himself? To not override the actions of His creation, to allow them to have a free will to choice the path of death or life. And in choosing either path, to allow them to damage those around them. Do I want to follow a God who has limited Himself so by His own creation that He weeps as children are raped, killed, violated instead of stopping things? Do I want to follow a God who allows Satan to have control of one of his children for a while? Do I want to follow a God who inflicts pain in order to have the space to bind up the wounds later? If I don't follow this God, what do I have?

He has created me. He knows what it is He made me for. He sees the truth of who I am. I can say that about no one else.

But what does this say about His sovereignty. I am still stuck in the Evangelic way that He has control. But is it true that He only has control of what I choice to let Him have control of in my life? That this is a constant choice that must be taken every moment to live under His rule. Can I even really make that choice without Him. He is still the ruler of His kingdom, and His kingdom is now. Or is it? The final battle has been fought, but there is still another left to be won.

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From: paulmo
Date: Thu Jan 20 01:53:55 MST 2005 Subject: Puts me in mind of a college class I took


Great topic. This reminds me of a class I took in college called Psychology and Religion. The class started out with the provocative question of "Why Did God Create?", and then dove into all kinds of topics from there. Basically ripped my naive church kid point of view to shreds, but it was the most valuable struggle with Christianity I'd had to date.

One of the things that we covered was God's removal of himself. Starting with the understanding that God by his nature fills all things and is in all things, we discussed the possibility that God had to in fact remove himself from his creation to "make room for it" -- to give it room to be in relationship with him. If he already filled creation, there could be no relationship with it in the "I/Thou" Martin Buber way -- subject to subject. Provocatively enough, there is a verse in Deuteronomy that talks about God making a decision to remove himself from the people of Israel, not out of anger but more in the flavor of seeing how they do. (I don't know the exact passage -- I'll look it up.)

If in fact God has removed himself to allow room for us to be in relationship, that makes the advent of Christ even more mind-boggling. Christ's birth would mean that God would go into the realm that is no-God and, even more than that, endure the most indignity and suffering that this existence could serve up. His desire for us is that powerful and far-reaching, enough to hunt us down and invite us into relationship with him in the farthest places we could put ourselves. It also brings a powerful context to the parable Jesus told of the Prodigal Son, with the father running to meet the son when he was a "long way off". And, like the Apostle Paul interprets later, Jesus literally becomes a bridge, a hand across the divide that God has set so that we can have access and seek intimate communion.

I don't know if all that is "true", but to me it's a powerful and consistent story about God that takes away any ideas of his capricious or malicious toying with humanity and instead tells of the depths that love will go to to seek out the object of it's love.

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From: paulmo
Date: Thu Jan 20 23:49:49 MST 2005 Subject: Revision to my last post


My bad. I checked in with my friend Sky who introduced me to the passage in a class he taught called God In The Ruins. It appears that God is in fact removing himself out of anger, and the context that Sky put it in is (in his own words):

"but in the class I taught that there was a progression...

from God walking/talking in the garden
to
God speaking to men from the heavens
to
God speaking only through His prophets
to
no prophets... God silent... only interpretation

to

God appearing in the flesh and dwelling among us.

but that progression is entirely tied to the disintegration and fragmentation of sin.

war."

So much for that point... Here's the verses he pointed out:

Deut 31:

31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us?

31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

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From: Boojeee
Date: Fri Jan 21 12:18:31 MST 2005 Subject: Compassionate One

I think the idea that God removes Himself for the purpose of relationship is key. Even if sometimes He's pissed off at our rebellion. The gut-wrenching question of why God didn't rescue me from abuse and misuse when I was a child never seems to really go away. It's like we're still that suffering child only now we have a good parent to ask why. The problem is that we little kids can never really wrap our hearts around the purpose of suffering. I gotta hang on to Psalm 22 that asks why with no real resolution other than its dual, prophetic reference to the suffering of Christ, who came with compassion [a suffering alongside] not with a conquering conclusion to suffering. It seems like there is hope of victories along the way, but still suffering. And yet, as the psalm emphasizes, in the end God will/has taken the victory.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD , be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD , praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD ,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn-
for he has done it.

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From: mike
Date: Fri Jan 21 13:50:03 MST 2005 Subject: You hit the mark

I have been wrestling with the very things Julie and cheryl have brought up in thier blogs. I don't just can't seem to get past the fact God permitted me to have the childhood that was inflicted on me. Psalm 22 really fits. I have never looked at it that way before.

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