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From: blksheep67
Date: Sun Aug 28 01:02:44 MST 2005 Subject: What is the Men's Smackdown?

Responses
derek: The Smacking of Men (8/29/05)
eric: Smackdown (8/29/05)
derek: Perpetual Absence (8/29/05)
Karen: "A coo!" (bless you) (8/29/05)
Karen: Addendum (8/29/05)
blksheep67: Pass on Truffaut's 400 Blows (8/29/05)
blksheep67: A Coo (defined) (8/29/05)
russ: Irrefutable Logic in Defense of the Name (8/29/05)
Karen: QED pro quo (8/29/05)
Karen: Correction (8/29/05)
Patricia: origins (8/29/05)
eric: nehemiah (8/29/05)
KeithB: smack (8/29/05)
blksheep67: I was simply asking a question and didn't realize I was setting a fire (8/29/05)
Karen: Voyeur (8/30/05)
andrea: Are Ninjas violent???? (8/30/05)
Karen: Ninja princess (8/30/05)
derek: masculine fire starting (8/31/05)
eric: hey derek (8/31/05)
rodhugen: Thoughts (8/31/05)
derek: Apology (9/2/05)
KeithB: More thoughts (9/1/05)
NewRyan: 2 cents (9/1/05)
eric: The End (9/2/05)
Responses (sorted by date)
eric: The End (9/2/05)
derek: Apology (9/2/05)
NewRyan: 2 cents (9/1/05)
KeithB: More thoughts (9/1/05)
rodhugen: Thoughts (8/31/05)
eric: hey derek (8/31/05)
derek: masculine fire starting (8/31/05)
Karen: Ninja princess (8/30/05)
andrea: Are Ninjas violent???? (8/30/05)
Karen: Voyeur (8/30/05)
blksheep67: I was simply asking a question and didn't realize I was setting a fire (8/29/05)
blksheep67: A Coo (defined) (8/29/05)
KeithB: smack (8/29/05)
blksheep67: Pass on Truffaut's 400 Blows (8/29/05)
Karen: Addendum (8/29/05)
eric: nehemiah (8/29/05)
Karen: "A coo!" (bless you) (8/29/05)
Patricia: origins (8/29/05)
Karen: Correction (8/29/05)
Karen: QED pro quo (8/29/05)
russ: Irrefutable Logic in Defense of the Name (8/29/05)
derek: Perpetual Absence (8/29/05)
eric: Smackdown (8/29/05)
derek: The Smacking of Men (8/29/05)
I was curious what the Men's Smackdown is?
I have images of guys in a boxing or wrestling ring (although it's really a square) beating on each others until one wins. As a sidebar haven't Christians beaten up each other enough in history?
Anyway do you all bring your big bibles and smack each other until there's a king of the hill? I'm fairly nonviolent.

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From: derek
Date: Sun Aug 28 21:52:23 MST 2005 Subject: The Smacking of Men

THANK YOU! I've been waiting since its institution for a proper explanation of this! My only thought is that this is a forum wherein to further decimate and smack-down the already struggling men of the Village, or that it is a reference to the WWF show of the same name, wherein I submit:

1. The WWF is fake. People getting hit with chairs by 7-foot bodybuilders do not stand back up. Even if they are able. Unless they are very stupid. In which case, they don't ever get back up again.

2. There are far better "macho" names out there which do not have the reference of hurting, either physically or, more importantly, emotionally, the participants of said event. For instance, "Fight Night" may have the reference of fighting together against a common foe (in this case, perhaps, the powers and principals [right? sorry, I just started school again]). Perhaps a war reference, either current or biblical, or something having to do with using great strength for something less recreational. Also, you could search out the wisdom angle as in the previously held event labeled "men at the gates," which seemed perfectly suitable, though, perhaps, having some modern stigma of laziness attached (perhaps ancient as well, I doubt many early rising Proverbs 31 wives enjoyed the practice as they dealt with screaming children and earning side incomes).

3. It's confusing to have to explain away it's meaning, rather than just explain the meaning. In the end, it's dinner and discussion and has nothing to do with a smack-down (unless a pastor gets perturbed). Also, while I'm on the subject, a few nights of watching sports or "guy" movies would be good. I think now of Fight Club, Die Hard, or Lethal Weapon (only the first one, except for 4 if you skip everything but Jet Li's scenes).

4. I cringe at having to go when I here the title.

Therein lies the bulk of my argument. I now leave room for q and a, as well as any concerns you might have about my movie choices. I didn't proofread, so take anything that doesn't make sense as a mumbled part of this rant. So, why Smack-Down? With my luck someone has an emotional attachment to it that I stomped on in my merriment. My bad!

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From: eric
Date: Sun Aug 28 23:47:02 MST 2005 Subject: Smackdown

Smackdown. Well, I liked the name. That is why we have it. It describes what might happen to you if you don't go. Though there are no recorded smackings but plenty of rumors. I choose to approach the name from a semi-postmodern perspective . . . that being - it means what ever you want it to, and I reject any and all cultural defining factors. I refuse to allow the fakness of the WWF and the bad rap the media has given the smacking of people to define our Smackdown . . . but, of course you can do and feel towards and write about and laugh at the Smackdown. I am sure it will go the way of "The men at the Gates" . . . that's just village life. Ah yes, and it is dinner and discussion. I have enjoyed it. oh well . . .

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From: derek
Date: Mon Aug 29 08:50:41 MST 2005 Subject: Perpetual Absence

Being of perpetual absence, I have yet to get smacked down. The closest I have come is a foot and a half from a mimed slap by Russ, complete with the proper "bad-martial-arts-movie" sound effects. If I started calling it something else, and it caught on, would it cause a coo? sp?

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From: Karen
Date: Mon Aug 29 15:01:54 MST 2005 Subject: "A coo!" (bless you)

Would it cause a coo (sp)? I had fun visions (with funny sound effects) of pigeons or white winged doves circling our heads, a la Hitchcock. It's actually "coup"... (didn't have to look it up...30+ units of French in college...see the other post about my word-nerd status)

Coup d'etat --scary, especially when headed up by pigeons with multinational corporation backing.
Coup de grace --bloody but merciful end to the Men's Smackdown.
Coup d'oeil-- glance (jeter un coup d'oeil a quelqu'un= check someone out)

But my favorite coup(e) is the coupe de glace-- scoop of ice cream.

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From: Karen
Date: Mon Aug 29 15:50:17 MST 2005 Subject: Addendum

I forgot to mention the classic Francois Truffaut film, "Les 400 Coups" (rough translation: the 400 Smackdowns)... that (supposedly) depressing coming-of-age story which I haven't actually seen myself.

I think I want to watch the movie you watched at the last smackdown, first. It sounded more hopeful ;-)

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From: blksheep67
Date: Mon Aug 29 16:43:51 MST 2005 Subject: Pass on Truffaut's 400 Blows

Pass on François Truffaut's 400 blows (les quatre cents coups). There are better Truffaut, French or other international films to see. Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451 and Wild Child (L'Enfant Sauvage) are better. My all time favorite's are Bergman's Seventh Seal (Det Sjunde inseglet)which is not to be confused with Demi Moore's 7th Sign. and Kurosawa's Ran are excellent. Vittorio De Sica's Bicycle Thief (Ladri di biciclette) is also a good choice. Yves Robert's My Mother's Castle (Le Château de ma mère) and My Father's Glory (La Gloire de mon père) are very good as well. Excellent French films with Gérard Depardieu include Daniel Vigne's Return of Martin Guerre (Le Retour de Martin Guerre), Giuseppe Tornatore's Pure Formality (Una Pura formalità), Bruno Nuytten's Camille Claudel, Claude Berri's Jean de Florette and Manon of the Spring (Manon des sources).
Ok I'm just going on and on now but trust me (remember Rod's sermon). These are excellent choices. I may need to blog a section on good international (and a few domestic) films. There are excellent international films that U.S. studios rip off and remake.
Casa Video on Speedway and Country Club had the best selection but I haven't been there since I moved out to the Marana area.

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From: blksheep67
Date: Mon Aug 29 18:31:58 MST 2005 Subject: A Coo (defined)

Karen may not have studied this in college: A coo is a takeover by pigeons. They may look weak and helpless but they're hiding in plain sight waiting for a chance to take over.
Think about it. That's all you ever hear them talking about.

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From: russ
Date: Mon Aug 29 09:18:07 MST 2005 Subject: Irrefutable Logic in Defense of the Name

1) We say we value community, knowing each other, being in each others' lives.
2) The women of the Village do this a lot, the men hardly at all.

Ergo, the men of the Village deserve a smackdown.

QED (Anybody rememeber what QED stands for? I don't...)

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From: Karen
Date: Mon Aug 29 14:44:45 MST 2005 Subject: QED pro quo

QED... question emitting diode?

OK, really, "quod erat demonstrandum" = which was to be demonstrated or proved. Hey, I'm not *that* much of a geek, because I had to look it up, and I'm sitting in a classroom surrounded by dictionaries. But if anyone at the Village wants to try to out-geek me in the word-nerd category, bring it on ;-)

I have no strong feelings pro or con the Smackdown title except to say it beats the heck out of The Secret Society of Touchy Feely Guys, or Crabbian Night on the Southside or... (Just what is it that you do over there?) How about Boyz n the Hood?

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From: Karen
Date: Mon Aug 29 14:49:01 MST 2005 Subject: Correction

I mean, Boyz n DA Hood.

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From: Patricia
Date: Mon Aug 29 14:58:29 MST 2005 Subject: origins

I think the first smack-down happened in Nehemiah 13:23 (I like the TLB version - in fact I like it so much that I once even put it up in the quotes...)

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From: eric
Date: Mon Aug 29 15:30:57 MST 2005 Subject: nehemiah

Nehemiah 13:23-25 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

23 Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. 24 Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. 25 I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves.

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From: KeithB
Date: Mon Aug 29 17:20:39 MST 2005 Subject: smack

Derek: your convoluted stream-of-conciousness aside, I salute and applaud your exceptional attention to proper spelling and grammar -- a matter we have neglected to reinforce positively in this community for fear of reprisal.

Karen: what on earth are you doing on this blog? Can't you see we're trying to explore our maleness here? It's an embarrasing process and we should be allowed to do this without female voyeurism.

Robert: see what you've done?

Have a nice day, all.

Kb

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From: blksheep67
Date: Mon Aug 29 19:01:47 MST 2005 Subject: I was simply asking a question and didn't realize I was setting a fire

I was simply asking a question and didn't realize I was setting a fire. Isn't participation, challenging presuppositions and the process of learning and the power of ideas a good thing?
Prior to my coming to Christ I wanted to know the truth as I was exploring the meaning of life while reading a book on witchcraft when a verse from the Gospel of John (14:6) exploded in my head: I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the father except through me. Lately John 8:32 has been rattling in my cavernous skull: You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free.
I just wanted to know what Men's Smackdown was. I'm not crazy about the name since I don't like violence and as a culture we seem to worship it. The idea of the group is a good one though.
Ok 1 more verse Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

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From: Karen
Date: Tue Aug 30 08:13:03 MST 2005 Subject: Voyeur

Hey, that's a French word, too: "seer" ;-)

I've made it, finally...I'm a fly on a wall. Somewhere.

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From: andrea
Date: Tue Aug 30 08:41:01 MST 2005 Subject: Are Ninjas violent????

I wonder about your cringing and difficulty when I know of your love for Ninjas. I have never heard of a gentle Ninja or a pacifist Ninja. If there was one, would they kick more gently than a regular Ninja? Hmmmm....

Another woman voyeur! HaHA HAAAAAA...we are everywhere!!!! ;)

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From: Karen
Date: Tue Aug 30 14:46:20 MST 2005 Subject: Ninja princess

Good point, Andrea. You and Derek missed the after-party discussion Saturday night that featured (among other topics) bizarre behavior of small dogs, as well as special-occasion martial arts techniques that the McConnell young-uns learned last year from the "nice" young karate guy at the Y, something about peaches... I have some in my fridge, should I practice just in case? And now I'm remembering the Presidents of the United States song, "Peaches"... random firing of synpases has begun. Students have left my room for the day. Must.... find... nap.... soon.

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From: derek
Date: Wed Aug 31 15:56:43 MST 2005 Subject: masculine fire starting

blksheep, I'm pretty sure I'm the one who set the fire. You just gave me a match. Anyway, you people are just cooless. Yes, I know I misspelled, it was pretty intentioned, I just felt more like screwing around than actually confirming the spelling. "Coup" reminds me too much of convertable sports cars and less of beheadings and razings, etc. My point is, "smacking down" the men does not promote healthy interaction, it instead adds more pressures, anxieties, responsibilities. Instead, I go the route of encouraging each other, having fun and/or deep conversations, doing things together that are masculine and loving in nature. Smacking a man doesn't encourage him into community. It encourages him into further isololate himself because he can't live up to the expectations of the community. This is something I know about. SOOOOO, instead of getting pissed off he didn't come, give him a reason to come, invite him through encouragement of using his gifts, offering good things, etc.

I taught a lot of Bible Studies. When I did, I was constantly researching, studying my Bible, walking into responsibility. Now, I'm not teaching, and it doesn't matter if I study or not. It doesn't have as noticeable an impact as it would were I teaching. So don't whine that your soldiers are slacking off on duty if you're not giving them orders. Yes, our women are beautiful in their walk with God and each other. But as long as they are leading the community, why should the men bother? We aren't being asked into leadership, and the thing inviting us further into community is the fear of getting smacked when we don't. Smackdown is stupid. It makes me feel like a pathetic and babied child. If you want me to be active, give me something meaningful to do, whether a specific job or a use of my gifts, and then encourage me as I do it. You should be upset that you aren't able to see me use my gifts and talents, not be upset that I'm a miserable failure at being in community. I have enough things I'm a miserable failure at. I have enough things I should get smacked down for. When I first heard the idea of a manditory men's group, it included things like going camping together, masculine things, things that tested and brought us together. The movie last month was great. But still, we're being given information on how to live. No one is asking us for wisdom.

Okay, so that's even more a rant. The point is that you're assuming we need to be smacked. Actually, we just need to be led. The men in the Village are light years ahead of many of the men I have known in other churches, including those in leadership. They are more emotionally aware and vulnerable, are willing to ask deeper questions, are more sensitive to things around them, and, most importantly, even if they are not far along on the path, they are truly concerned with their relationship with God and each other. Right?

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From: eric
Date: Wed Aug 31 18:00:14 MST 2005 Subject: hey derek

If you have some issues with the leadership, you need to talk to them.

eric

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From: rodhugen
Date: Wed Aug 31 18:50:53 MST 2005 Subject: Thoughts

Derek,

It would have been good if you first came to the leadership privately with your concerns as Matthew 18 advises. That way we would have had the opportunity to either apologize, correct misinformation, or find common ground privately. Making your accusations against the leadership public in this forum makes anything the leaders say now sound defensive or argumentative.

Many of the things you cite as longings are things that we have done at the Smackdown. One of the most difficult nights for most of us was the night we went around the room telling each other the gifts, talents, and abilities we possessed and saw in each other. I heard things that night - positive, building things - that have caused me to walk deeper into what God created me to be. Sadly, you weren't there. Another night we shared our burdens in small groups and then prayed for each other. It was powerful and life changing for me. You weren't there for that one either.

I do recall 'smacking' the men one night. I was brutal. It came because I had turned a longing into a demand. I also recall saying I was very sorry the next meeting. I think you weren't there for that one either. Perhaps the Smackdown is misnamed. It is however a beautiful time for many who attend each month. I know that I was bummed out when I had to miss one of the meetings.

Dad

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From: derek
Date: Thu Sep 1 23:53:38 MST 2005 Subject: Apology

I'm trying to write defenses and apologies, and I have no idea which things are offensive (other than that things obviously are). I'd like a conversation about those things. For some I just didn't explain what I meant enough. But, if you're saying that "smacking down" men is what we are about, then I definitely need a conversation. I don't like the use of "smack down." I don't believe it's what we do or what we want to present. I can see its evolution into its current position. I'm not angry that it is instituted. I'm just saying what I've said since the beginning, which is that I despise it. I believe I've even asked during one of the discussions if we could change it. When I'm sitting in my room weeping and shaking from anxiety, or am scared to death be around anybody, let alone a large group, I don't do well with the insinuation that I should be smacked for it. It feeds into the belief I am not good enough, that I need to "push though it" and live a normal life. I don't blame the leadership. I don't blame an individual. I'm not even saying the name is wrong. I'm saying that the use of the name in that context is wrong. So, ask me questions, tell me what I should do. Smack me down. Whatever.

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From: KeithB
Date: Thu Sep 1 17:03:40 MST 2005 Subject: More thoughts

I actually forgot about that time, Rod, where you lit the place up. Personally, I can't remember what it was about precisely and I think I got over it before the end of the night...(but that's another issue I probably need to deal with). The salient point to be made here is that the philosophy, intent, structure and practice of this monthly meeting has nothing to do with smacking anybody. The word "smackdown" is comic relief. Period. Anyone trying to insinuate that men at this monthly meeting are getting pounded or ordered around or otherwise disenfranchised is misinformed (i.e., wrong). The things that we participate in together at these meetings are precisely the kinds of interactions that reflect an authentic attempt at leadership toward spritual growth.

Maybe we should change the name.

Kb

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From: NewRyan
Date: Thu Sep 1 20:57:59 MST 2005 Subject: 2 cents

I like the name. I think it's funny. I mean come on, it has such a nice ring to it....SMACK DOWN! And it's catchy. It makes people wonder, "What goes on at a smackdown?"

I don't think names like
Men's Dinner and Discussion, or
Men's Night, or
That Thing That Men Do on Fridays
would generate the same interest/controversy.

I think we should keep it.

-r

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From: eric
Date: Fri Sep 2 00:00:07 MST 2005 Subject: The End

I would like this conversation to go off line. Please do not post anymore responses. Thxs. Eric

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