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From: blancaro
Date: Thu Aug 31 14:42:39 MST 2006 Subject: meaninglessness

Responses
Karen: Eccelesiastes (8/31/06)
Karen: God taking risks... (8/31/06)
eric: tim keller (9/1/06)
NewRyan: a quote (9/1/06)
MaryKay: Promises (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
MaryKay: focus (9/1/06)
Karen: Ministry (9/1/06)
eric: tim keller (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
emily: Eden (9/1/06)
Karen: Choice vs. feeling (9/1/06)
Karen: More thoughts... (9/1/06)
Boojeee: No Subject (9/1/06)
adriennelynne: No Subject (9/2/06)
emergentpadre: Meaning vs "the juice" (9/10/06)
Responses (sorted by date)
emergentpadre: Meaning vs "the juice" (9/10/06)
adriennelynne: No Subject (9/2/06)
Karen: More thoughts... (9/1/06)
Karen: Choice vs. feeling (9/1/06)
Boojeee: No Subject (9/1/06)
emily: Eden (9/1/06)
eric: tim keller (9/1/06)
Karen: Ministry (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
MaryKay: focus (9/1/06)
blancaro: Response (9/1/06)
MaryKay: Promises (9/1/06)
NewRyan: a quote (9/1/06)
eric: tim keller (9/1/06)
Karen: God taking risks... (8/31/06)
Karen: Eccelesiastes (8/31/06)
Here is a good one:
What is the point of life? No, really. I would like to hear what other people think cause I have just had it trying to figure out. Everything I can think of in the end seems futile as I know it won't fill the emptiness I feel at the end of the day or more often at the begging of the day when I don't feel like doing anything cause it all feels futile and meaningless. sometimes raising clildren can bring purpose to ones life, but I also know that one day those children leave the nest leaving that same empty feeling. Should I try to better myself? develop some talent? make more money? all for what? I know that at the end of all that awaits emptiness and meaninglessness. What brings purpose to one's life is my question. Anyone care to share?

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From: Karen
Date: Thu Aug 31 16:40:50 MST 2006 Subject: Eccelesiastes

Have you read that book of the OT? One dark chapter after another... a lot like your post, although your post was much more concise.

Here are some echoes of what you said. All quotes are from the NIV...

Ec 1:14 - I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
Ec 2:1 - I thought in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good." But that also proved to be meaningless.
(Having fun isn’t the point.)

Ec 2:11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind; nothing was gained under the sun.
(Working hard isn’t the point.)

Ec 2:21 For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then he must leave all he owns to someone who has not worked for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune.
(Leaving a great legacy behind you isn’t the point.)

Ec 2:23 All his days his work is pain and grief; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is meaningless.
(All the struggle of life, giving you insomnia, making you wonder, over and over, what's the point?)

Ec 3:19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
(Being "evolved"--being supposedly “better” than the animals—AKA humanism, without God sustaining it--isn’t the point.)

Ec 4:4 And I saw that all labor and all achievement spring from man's envy of his neighbor. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
(Competition isn’t enough to keep us going, either!)

Ec 4:8 There was a man all alone; he had neither son nor brother. There was no end to his toil, yet his eyes were not content with his wealth. "For whom am I toiling," he asked, "and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?" This too is meaningless-- a miserable business!
(Sacrificing a personal life for a successful career…that REALLY isn’t enough.)

Ec 5:10 -
Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless.
(Money doesn’t buy happiness…yeah, we know that… why do we still struggle not to believe it?)

Ec 6:2
God gives a man wealth, possessions and honor, so that he lacks nothing his heart desires, but God does not enable him to enjoy them, and a stranger enjoys them instead. This is meaningless, a grievous evil.
(Even those who manage to “have it all” struggle with depression. That sucks!)

Ec 7:15
In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: a righteous man perishing in his righteousness, and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.
(“Only the good die young”—that sucks, too.)

Ec 8:14
There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless.
(If you’re waiting for the vindication of people “getting what they deserve” before you get resolution and get on with your own life…you’re likely to be deeply disappointed.)

Ec 9:9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.
(Notice how no one seems to be reading THIS verse at weddings!)

Ec 11:10 So then, banish anxiety from your heart and cast off the troubles of your body, for youth and vigor are meaningless.
(Having your health isn't even the point…)

Ec 12:8 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Everything is meaningless!"

After going ON AND ON AND ON about all this…here’s the conclusion of Ecclesiastes:

“Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”

From this dark, dark book, a bittersweet-hopeful ending: “God’s still God.” And from this--and so many other places in Scripture--I infer that meaning in life is found through obedience to God’s commandments. Everything else must be subject to that higher meaning:

Luke 10: 25-28 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

I think these two broad commandments—love God and love your neighbor—would be my answer to your question.

As for loving others when it's downright risky (which Jesus went on to illustrate in the parable that followed the verses above), what is the point? Especially when you're taking a risk to care for someone who refuses to appreciate--much less reciprocate--your love? Now, that is a painful question. And one that God might never answer to us, at least not in our earthly life. But it is a path that he has been willing to undertake himself.

“But what’s the point?” is a question I hear in my head a lot, when I believe God is asking me to love himself, or love someone, in a way that costs me. There may not be an answer; to move forward without knowing the answer is the faith part of it all. For me, anyway.

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From: Karen
Date: Thu Aug 31 16:48:36 MST 2006 Subject: God taking risks...

When I re-read my post, it occurred to me that maybe "God taking a risk" himself doesn't necessarily resonate with people. I guess we'd be wading out into theological waters (that have been certainly waded into before--beware the undertow!) But I wanted to clarify that God took risks through the person of Christ, and of course there's what those...what's it called, Emily Mc...open theology people?...think. Oh, I think I've got the wrong term. Anyway. Signing off for now.

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From: eric
Date: Thu Aug 31 20:04:12 MST 2006 Subject: tim keller

Hey Blanca,

I know you have been listening to Tim Keller. What do you think he would say the point of life is?

eric

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From: NewRyan
Date: Thu Aug 31 22:12:39 MST 2006 Subject: a quote

this has helped me recently:

"Meaningless, meaningless! All is meaningless except our loving God and serving only him. This is the highest wisdom: to despise the world and seek the Kingdom of Heaven." - The Imitation of Christ

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From: MaryKay
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:24:02 MST 2006 Subject: Promises

In reading the above responses it is so clear that God has given us so many valuable resources to help us find the truth! I have also been convicted that I tend to go to the scriptures as a last resort. It's much easier for me to talk to others, listen to tapes, etc rather than to be still and read God's written word. So tonight I looked at THE BOOK that tends to get dusty and opened it. Here is what I read:
"For I know the plans I have for you,"declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you." declares the Lord.

I can't think of a more rich collection of promises and they come right from the Lord's mouth. This to me is a great summary of the purpose of living life.

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From: blancaro
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:24:29 MST 2006 Subject: Response

Karen you summed it up well. Eclessiastes always hits me where it hurts.
"Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man". So this is the duty of man, but I still have to pull weeds that will eventually give way to new ones anyways. We still have to go to work day after day, getting caught up in a routine that seems to never end.

Ryan from your quote:"Meaningless, meaningless! All is meaningless except our loving God and serving only him. This is the highest wisdom: to despise the world and seek the Kingdom of Heaven." Can I infer that meaning will only come through ministry?

Eric, I don't know what TK would say, I will try to find out. May be I'll call him :-)

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From: MaryKay
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:31:44 MST 2006 Subject: focus

The mundane tasks of our daily routines are as important to our ministry here on earth as our labeled evangelical outreach activities. When I do my best to seek God with all my heart the fruit spills over into living life. Being content in all circumstances even includes doing the dishes and that is certainly something I can't do in my own power.

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From: Karen
Date: Fri Sep 1 08:22:47 MST 2006 Subject: Ministry

I'll throw my $.02 in, yes, it's about ministry, but only if you define it in the broadest sense possible. NOT in the narrow, American evangelical Christian culture, full time paid minister sense. SOMEONE has to plant and pick the plants that we eat...someone has to research on, then manufacture the drugs that help to heal our 1-yr-old infants when they get staph infections.

When you're pulling weeds, I don't think it's a stretch to say that you're ministering to the other plants that would be otherwise choked out. (Stewardship of the earth is a form of love/ministry.) And you're ministering to the neighbors who love the beauty of a weed-free yard.

Of course, in my case, I usually like the look of the weeds. Like the "weeds" in the Unwin front yard. And I love, love dandelions, wherever they grow. But not the weeds with the goat-heads! Ouch.

Anyway, I think it's all about the heart. The spiritual intention. Not what you do so much as how you do it. 1 Cor 10:31: "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

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From: eric
Date: Fri Sep 1 09:03:04 MST 2006 Subject: tim keller

Hey Blanca,
Joel said you were listening to a lot of Tim Keller sermons. He talks about this question in almost all of his messages, so I was just wondering what you had learned.

Eric

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From: blancaro
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:56:15 MST 2006 Subject: Response

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From: blancaro
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:57:36 MST 2006 Subject: Response

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From: blancaro
Date: Thu Aug 31 23:59:28 MST 2006 Subject: Response

sorry about the repeating blank responses, having trouble posting..

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From: blancaro
Date: Fri Sep 1 00:00:45 MST 2006 Subject: Response

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From: emily
Date: Fri Sep 1 09:41:24 MST 2006 Subject: Eden

Blanca, I really liked your many blank responses. They remind me of how my heart feels when someone trys to tell me that "such and such" is the point. My mind recognizes the truth in various versions of saying "God is the point" but my heart just sighs.

Being a person who struggles with meaninglessness, I don't have a good stock of ideas to offer because I have rejected too many of them as, well, meaningless.

I can only offer a part of my story with God that seemed to ease some of my pointlessness feelings.

So I start with a long history of not being interested in symbolic events: birthdays, weddings, anniversaries, Thanksgiving, Christmas, baptism, communion, etc. One evening at church I was once more pondering the bread and the juice with a sigh. I wanted to cry because yet again, people around me seemed to be having intimate experiences with God as they took on postures of repentence and reverence in preparation for communion.

I felt bitter. References were made in the sermon about how we are the precious bride of Christ and we should feel so grateful about that, blah, blah, blah. Woop-de-doo. I'm the bride of Christ but I don't get any chance to WANT to be that bride (besides the obvious problem of deserving to go to the dungeon with the dragon if I don't become the bride).

I guess I'm supposed to sit here and try to think about what a bad person I am so I can be grateful that I get to be a bride. Or maybe I'm supposed to think about how magnificent the groom is so I can be grateful to be his bride? It seems like a one-sided romance where I do all the work. He shrouds himself in mystery and I get to try to convince myself that he loves me and find all the reasons to love him to boot. How come he doesn't bring some of his own reasons himself? If he's such an eligible bachelor how come he's not very good at catching my interest?

At that point I distinctly heard in my mind "I will woo you" (emphasis in the I and you). My thoughts scrambled around basically saying "what? can you be more specific?" But I just got a repeat of the first statement. So after I realised that was all that was going to be said I started thinking about what that meant to me. I realised that Jesus was freeing me from trying to reach to the heights of love for him before he has even wooed me there.

So I gave up trying to love Jesus. I remain faithful by not turning to other gods - but I reserve my praise and adoration for when I'm really convinced. That seems to be far less often than for other people. But its far more meaningful to me than anything else I've ever done.

So the reason this has eased my pointlessness feelings is that I don't try so hard to find meaning anymore. And I try really hard not to be pursuaded to try "purposes" that are meaningful for other people. Its rather like yo-yo dieting in my case. I really throw myself into their vision for a while and I do find meaning and purpose and I feel so fulfilled! But then I can't keep it up and the meaninglessness comes back even stronger than before.

In recent years I have gone through a number of variations of shedding "purposes" that aren't convincing to me. My creator has become more interesting to me. I'm still not interested in communion. Oh well. At least I'm interested in what might happen next.

EmilyMc.

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From: Karen
Date: Fri Sep 1 11:13:17 MST 2006 Subject: Choice vs. feeling

Emily, I totally relate to the "whoop de doo" comment. On the hard days, although I know I'm committed and am not going to change my mind about that, it still feels like a "marriage of convenience," if you know what I'm saying. If I'm the bride, I think of the Streisand/Neil Diamond song: "You don't bring me flowers anymore." The honeymoon is over... (or maybe we never really had one?)

If I know what the point of being alive is, how come I can't make myself feel it all the time? I guess all you really can control in yourself is not bowing to the other gods. All those gods itemized in Ecclesiastes, for example.

The feelings do come and go (as the moon goes through its phases, as the barometer rises and falls...) and what you're saying makes me think, we're not responsible for ridding ourselves, or generating in ourselves, the woo-hoo feeling. We're just responsible for obedience to God. "Just" for that! Ha-ha. "It's by grace you've been saved."

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From: Karen
Date: Fri Sep 1 15:56:18 MST 2006 Subject: More thoughts...

I can't help but seek the underlying meaning, the reason for x, y, z. Why was my teacher, Audrene, allowed to die suddenly of heart failure before her son was even weaned? Why was my friend Larry allowed to die at 16: half-awake, he got caught in his blankets and hit the back of his head on the bunkbed ladder, smacking his brainstem, stopping breathing, instantly.

What is the point of investing deeply in other people's lives, when it's all so fragile? What's the point of investing in anything, anything that could be lost, stolen or taken at any moment?

What's the point of getting my students to engage with a poem when so much in our culture implies that art (because it's not practical, it's not wealth-producing) is not worth the effort or time? What's the point of anything, anything at all?

I guess "there is no point," in a way. But I must do it anyway. Because that's how God will "get" to me, through the engagement with the "stuff" of life. No dropping out allowed. I can take naps when needed, but I can't pull the covers over my head forever. I guess there's really no halfway participation.

The school administration brought in a special multimedia presentation this week. There were true stories interlaced with rock music and film clips. There was an indirect, but clear reference to God, early on: our world tells you x, y, and z, all these messages that aren't true, but you have to listen to a higher authority.

The underlying message was clear to me. It made me think of the scripture that we sing at Vespers: "Consider it pure joy...whenever you face trials of many kinds, for the testing of your faith leads to perserverance." The filmmakers gave a couple of examples of what NOT to do when your feeling of pointlessness strikes. There was one satirical video clip..."I'm from the United States of Whatever." (OK place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there??)

I think offering a blank in response to anything, not having an answer at all, is much better than "whatever."

Still fighting the pull to say, "Whatever."

And speaking of pull... yeah, I think Julie's right about the weeds. Have you seen Dr. P yet, Blanca??

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From: Boojeee
Date: Fri Sep 1 10:00:11 MST 2006 Subject:

I don't really know what to say, my dear Blanquita, but I love you [as do all the children in my house, which is probably more meaningful] and think you have a beautiful heart for truth and authenticity. I'm praying for you.
Boojeee

ps - don't pull any more weeds; we don't want you to throw your back out again.

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From: adriennelynne
Date: Sat Sep 2 14:16:43 MST 2006 Subject:

I hear the pain in your post, Blanca, and although I feel unfit to write, I have felt worse as I have not written yet.
I have been where you are- nothing matters. The world sucks. Yet, I am in a place now where those thoughts are far from me and God has really been changing me. Thus, I want to encourage you. May God love you right now- hold you in His arms- comfort you and create an everlasting peace upon your heart that it is ALL meaningful.
I have begun reading Ezekiel- a book that I don't know much about. God chooses Ezekiel to bring truth to the Israelites- a people who are far from Him again.
First, I would like to express what Ezekiel sees, "Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking." Ezekiel 1:28 later... "And the glory of the LORD was standing there, like the glory I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown." Ezekiel 3:23 When I imagine being in the presence of God and falling down I am reminded that it is NOT meaningless. It brings me chills to imagine such an experience. God’s desire is for us to be close to Him- have a romantic relationship where He blesses us. I think his other desire is for us to share with others of His love. Although I fail to do this all the time, I know that He desires for me to be loving others- especially when they are feeling that it is all meaningless. I have a heart for joy. I love to see people dancing around for the Lord. I love to see people smiling. I especially love to see children joyful. As I mentioned, I feel totally unfit to write- but I know that God wants to bring you joy. I don’t know what brought you to where you are, but I know that it is a tough place to be. Obviously I cannot define what will bring you joy and meaning other than my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I do not know the plans he has for you, but I know that they have meaning- they have joy in their depths of sorrow. I know that there are a lot of people walking around who need a Savior- who need a meaning. Does meaning come with ministry? I think it does. Does it come with other things too? Of course it does.
I find great meaning when I read about the holiness of God…when I read about His love and His desire for His people. His glory is so awesome. The only thing I can do is pray that His love surrounds you and that he brings thoughts of things that are meaningful to you. Thank you for sharing your heart.

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From: emergentpadre
Date: Sun Sep 10 14:59:10 MST 2006 Subject: Meaning vs "the juice"

I really resonate with the pain and frustration of seeing those around me "feeling the Spirit" while I am just going through the motions. Lindy and I have spent most of our Christian lives in charismatic churches. We at times had great fellowship, and some real connections with God, but most of the time we spent seeking those "Holy Ghost" experiences with emotional highs and or direct "words from the Lord".

After many years in the pursuit of experience, God gave me a freedom to just be where I was. Sometimes I have an experience with him, and it is great. However, I think some may misinterpret the reading of Scripture. It sounds like all those great women and men of God lived in perpetual highs, getting words from the Lord, and seeing His miracles.

But their lives are often condensed in a few verses, and I believe even the greatest among them lived years where it seemed to them that the heavens were turned to brass. They cried out to their Lord, and heard nothing but static. Bad stuff happened, oppressors won, the wicked prospered, and everyone made fun of them. Right after his great mountaintop experience where he called fire down from heaven to destroy the false prophets, Elijah ended up in deep depression in a cave, in fear of his life. We look at the Israelites in the desert and judge them, saying "how can they doubt God's provision after having seen such miracles?", but what seemed like minutes to us as we read the stories were days and weeks with nothing but desert, sore feet, and thirst, and no word from God, as they got tired of eating bread three times a day.

And so are our lives. We have deep pain, struggle with our own sins and faithlessness, and wonder about the meaning in that suffering around us.

But Jesus came, not to demand some kind of "going through the motions" loyalty from us, but to bring us into community with both God and our fellow man. That lifted a huge burden from off of my back, as I no longer was responsible for hearing his voice, or feeling that intimacy. I cannot make it happen, and it was great freedom to me to realize that I cannot.

This leaves me free to appreciate the little things, like going to church, or hanging with friends (or even strangers), and just enjoying the good times. When bad times come, I don't have to understand them. I can't tell you what guilt I used to feel when I felt confused or lack of understanding. I felt this huge pressure to "have faith", but I really didn't even know what that meant.

I think the word faith has been so broken by confused theology, that I now prefer its synonym, trust. I occasionally get mad at my lovely wife, or get hurt by something she does that I don't understand, but after so many years of being in relationship with her, I have learned to trust her. Now, I think to myself, "I don't understand her reaction, but I still know she loves me."

And so it is with my relationship with the Lord. Yep, I'm messed up and I have to live with that, but he is always gracious to forgive and accept me. My spiritual life has fewer "highs", but there is a peace in not needing to know the meaning. If I feel scared or hurt, it is ok.

And that abandonment of the search for meaning has given me new joy. My relationship with Him is more like with my wife. We often just sit around of an evening reading books on completely different topics. Few words are spoken. Communication of "real meaning" may be absent, but we just enjoy each other's company. That is a peaceful feeling I treasure even when I am apart from her. This is not a deep emotion or feeling, but a comfort knowing she is sitting over there.

This may not help or even apply to you at all, but in my case, when I stopped trying to "be good" and "communicate with him", I came to a new peace, and the lack of meaning took on new meaning as I just hang out down here with other creatures of His making, and He and I connect sometimes when it seems right to Him.

Larry

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