Villagersonline : blogs : adriennelynne : On love in the church
villagersonline
A Community Tunneling Protocol
The Village meets at 5pm Sundays
1926 N. Cloverland Ave. map

Links
(edit) The Village Cancer Relief Fund;


From: adriennelynne
Date: Tue Jun 19 12:37:21 EDT 2007 Subject: On love in the church

Responses
russ: Weep (6/19/07)
MaryKay: Amen (6/20/07)
Suki: Good Thoughts (6/20/07)
ginger: Totally! (6/20/07)
emergentpadre: Lindi, on Larry's account (7/7/07)
eric: short response (7/7/07)
emily: objects of ministry (7/8/07)
eric: Friendship (7/8/07)
emily: best vs. close (7/12/07)
eric: Emily thxs (7/12/07)
Responses (sorted by date)
eric: Emily thxs (7/12/07)
emily: best vs. close (7/12/07)
eric: Friendship (7/8/07)
emily: objects of ministry (7/8/07)
eric: short response (7/7/07)
emergentpadre: Lindi, on Larry's account (7/7/07)
ginger: Totally! (6/20/07)
MaryKay: Amen (6/20/07)
Suki: Good Thoughts (6/20/07)
russ: Weep (6/19/07)
I have been reading a book entitled, Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller. It is ¨nonreligious thougths on Christian spirituality.¨So far I have been enjoying it greatly. It might be one of those books I read again and again. It feels like it´s giving you too much at once and you can only work on so many things at once! This is also how I felt after reading the book Steven gave me for Christmas a few years ago...Let Me Be a Woman.
So today I was reading in the sun and I began the chapter, Love: how to really love other people. Donald reflects a summer of travels and backpacking. He spends a month living with pot smoking hippies in the middle of Eastern Oregon. It is there that he encounters people who love one another. There aren´t expectation and stipulations. Your ideas are listened to and perhaps challenged...but in a manner that is first resepectful.
After the month in the bush Donald makes his way to Colorado where he will be a counselor at a Christian camp. He is asked to shave and clean up a bit upon arriving. Hmmmm He then begins attending a unitarian church. He enjoys the love and acceptance it provides, but realizes the people in the church all have different theologies, philosophies, etc... How can this be? He writes, ¨On the other hand, however, I felt by loving liberal people, I mean by really endorsing in their existence, I was betraying the truth of God because I was encouraging them in their lives apart fom God...¨

So then the pounding question:
¨HOW COULD I MERGE THE CULTURE OF TEH WOODS AND THE UNITARIAN CHURCH WITH CHRISTIAN CULTURE AND YET NOT ABANDON THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE? HOW COULD I LOVE MY NEIGHBOR WITHOUT ENDORSING WHAT I TRULY BELIEVED WAS UNHEALTHY SPIRITUALLY?¨

One of his conclusions leads us to examine our relationships-love. Think of metaphors that cause trouble in relationships: we value people, we invest in people, relationships can be bankrupts, people are priceles.... we think of love as a commodity. We use it like money.

He gives the example of someone who lived a pagan life and spoke with swear words and was socially awkward....rather than loving this person he ignored him and thought badly of him...ultimately he WITHELD love.
How many times have I been annoyed by someone? How often have I witheld love? The thought is piercing into the depths of who God has called me to be.
The Bible says, ¨Talk with your mouth and your heart doesn´t show love...you are like a person standing there smashing two cymbals together. You are only annoying everyone around you.¨

Even with the ideas of love and how we use it as a commodity I still struggle. Ok, so my job is to openly love...no matter what. It is Christ´s job to change hearts and my job to love. I can deal with that. I can wrestle and struggle and work to love people...but I have when it comes to the next question I am stumped:
So what is the church´s job?

I honestly don´t know. Do we open the doors wide open and love love love while awaiting for Christ to change hearts? Do we close them and let people slide in? Do we openly point fingers at sinners when we ourselves fall short every second of every day?
This is a key question for even choosing a church to attend. What kind of community do I want to be a part of? One of the things that The Village has offered is loving the socially awkward. The ones who speak out in church and on the street and make you wonder.... the Village loves them and accepts them and welcomes their comments. I have seen Christ´s love in the church...for the first time.
So anyway, I know you have a lot of sifting through this long winded blog...but any ideas are welcomed and asked of!

---aren´t we all just socially awkward??????----

Edit this blog
Write a response Email the author



From: russ
Date: Tue Jun 19 14:05:01 EDT 2007 Subject: Weep

I heard Dan Allender say once about people who want to confront him about sin: "I ask them if they have wept for me. If not, I ask them not to say anything." It's probably the best thing I've ever heard about what it means to "speak the truth in love." It seems to me that if we really were weeping for people before we spoke, then we would speak exactly God's heart - hard truth when required, soft compassion when deserved.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: MaryKay
Date: Wed Jun 20 11:04:54 EDT 2007 Subject: Amen

This verse is posted on my refrigerator and what I aspire to offer to others.
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." James 3:17

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: Suki
Date: Wed Jun 20 11:03:38 EDT 2007 Subject: Good Thoughts

Wow, Adrienne - that's beautiful!
I've read the book too, and enjoyed the soft humor & thoughtful considerations. I like the part you mentioned about the pot-smoking hippies: that they'd disagree with each other, but respected one another first. It reminds me of something Larry Crabb says in one of his books about honoring the dignity that each person has as a result of being created in God's image. Eric mentioned that on Sunday, too -- the created in God's image part from Genesis. Anyway, it makes me see how often I'm tempted to try to change people (or avoid them) without respecting them. Because my agenda isn't first their well-being. It's first my comfort.
When I was reading through Romans earlier this year, I was really struck by the following verse: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God"(Rom 15:7). Our lives together would be so rich and safe if we could live this! I think Christ has accepted me with a full embrace. He has removed my sins from me and washed me clean. He also is in the process of transforming me into a truer reflection of Himself. He doesn't leave us unchanged.
So it seems crazy to try and sum up what the church should do in a few sentences. But here goes: I think that the individual's approach can't be separated from that of the church. Since the individuals together ARE the church. I think that we should lavishly accept each other, with all our annoying, rough edges and prickly beliefs. And I think we should also "spur one another on toward love and good deeds" (Hebrews 10:24). Because we're joining Christ in His work. I agree that it's his job to transform us. But he often gives us a part in the process (with ourselves & with each other). He may move us to speak in ways that the Holy Spirit will then use.
And I totally agree with your last idea. We're all nerds at the core!

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: ginger
Date: Wed Jun 20 15:07:35 EDT 2007 Subject: Totally!

I just finished that book about 2 weeks ago. I have been seeking answers on some of those questions too. Growing up in a ultra-conservative home, I was taught to turn away from the really bad people. But aren't we all really bad? Going through such a dark period in my life, I tend to be a bit more graceful toward the struggling. Miller paints such a beautiful picture about the hippies in the woods. I think what struck me was that he DID feel more loved there than in the church.
I think if you put Christ in the same situation, he would probably would have listened to each person and just loved them regardless of if they agreed with him or not. People are drawn to others who love and accept them without strings attached. It is the love of Christ in us that shines through and hopefully others will want to partake in that unconditional love.
Kevin and I have been talking a lot about how to be missional without being missional. What I mean is, are we approaching relationships just to bring people into our way of life or are we approaching relationships because we see the value of people as they are, each a reflection of Christ no matter what their theology may be.
I often feel that I'm being too open minded. However when I look at the gospels I don't see that Christ had to argue or plead with anyone in order to bring them to Himself. He didn't condemn anyone outside the church. Instead He looked at the "religious" and called them out on their false piety and their holy egos. What an amazing example, and yet somehow the church just does not get it.
Anyhow enough rambling. That really is an awesome book.

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: emergentpadre
Date: Sat Jul 7 06:46:16 EDT 2007 Subject: Lindi, on Larry's account

I'm not sure I'm using this correctly. I'm go to blogs and websites and messageboards for hours each day and this is the only one that confuses me. (-:

<>

Larry and I have struggled with this. We also had a recent similar experience with the guy in your book. One of the many times we've lived somewhere for a very short time,due to Larry's work, we lived in an RV park. Some people lived there year round and some people only came for winter. Some came just for weekends. Almost none were saved; in fact, most were either not intererested in such things or very new age-y. But, still, this RV park was like a little community, or maybe a small town. You had people with money who wanted to run things, you had people who liked to smoke dope all the time, you had people who were jocks, people who were nerds; we even had a two deaf gay men who lived together and a group of women who were bi-sexual. Of course, we didn't hang out with all these people but we knew most by name. We would see them and say hello at the pool or in the hottub or at the weekly pot luck or dance, if we decided to go.

Lar and I were amazed at the amount of community we felt there. People were really non-judging and willing to be inconvenienced, which at the moment, seems like a good definition for love. Also, I noticed, I felt really comfortable. Since I'd been living in the Christian "ghetto" for years, I though, "Uh, gee -- maybe I'm backsliding! I'm enjoying these people more than I do most Christians." How could this be?

The Village isn't so bad, I don't think, but most churches I've been in have these standards. I'm not talking about rules anyone says out loud ---like don't drink beer in a Baptist church, although they have too many of those, too, imho. But in many churches (at least, in the Bible belt, where I came from only a little over a year ago)there's just this lack of freedom to be yourself. You have to be "spiritual." Even if you are feeling unspiritual and say so, you must say you are feeling unspiritual in what is the acceptable spiritual way. I'm not sure if you undertand what I'm saying -- you'll have had to experience it to know, I think. But it's not real. Sometimes I think people are so, well, uh.. constipated about God that that's the way it is. And of course, if a person is like this with believers, how much more will he/she feel lack of freedom with non-believers? I think the only reason why Lar and I finally changed and felt comfortable, was because we'd experienced a very, very hurtful situation at our former church where we'd felt let down and betrayed. So, we were more sensitive to other people, whether they were Christians or not.

Many people make non-believers into projects. And people aren't dumb -- they know if you really care and will continue to care even if they NEVER accept Christ. But we must! God causes rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous! Others (again, I've not seen that so much here)expect nonbelievers to act like Christians. They see some people getting wasted all the time -- and they go, "Oh, no.! They shouldn't do that and maybe i shouldn't hang out with them." But what do you expect? You can't expect a nonbeliever to act like a believer. We need to communicate with them on their own ground. I don't mean you have to get wasted, but you can't judge it. After all, it's perhaps the best they have to cope with life until they meet the One with the easy yoke and light burden. We need to accept them as they are until they find Christ. But our treatment should be the same before they find Him as after.

Even though my calling has normally been within the church, I've really been praying that God will open some doors for me to have some good relationships with unbelievers here in Tucson, too. It's hard because my neighborhood is very anonymous and I don't work. But I have gone a few times to the neighborhood pool and met a few people that I hope a way to show them Christ's love will develop. Most people are so needy for both spiritual and practical things. But they they won't usually tell you the spiritual thing right off for fear of being preached at and/or condemned. So, you listen to practical things (my my job sucks, we can't afford anything, my kids drive me nuts, I have to smoke some weed to get relaxed). And when you help meet those practical needs and they know you're doing it out of true caring and not as an evangelical project, they will sometimes start sharing about spiritual things.

Reminds me of when Larry and I went as missionaries to Honduras -- the fact is, the country is flooded with missionaries, not be mention Honduran Christians who can often do the job better. After we came home (it was a temporary thing) Lar started a business outsourcing to Honduran programers. Honduras is a poor country so this met a practical need and many Christian families were blessed and some people became Christians, too. But even those who didn't, I think realized we weren't nasty American imperialists but people who loved their people-- and who knows what will happen in time? Sometimes, one sows and another reeps. BTW With Lar's new job, he gets to outsource to Honduras again!

Lindy

Edit this response
Write a response



From: eric
Date: Sat Jul 7 14:43:23 EDT 2007 Subject: short response

Hey, Lindy . . . great response. It seems like you've figured out how the website works. My recent trip to Tenn. confirmed for me how out-of-the-bible belt I am. Though, it was interesting to see how my brother has influenced his friends and created a "more authentic" community, but it was also humorous to see how southern Christianity has changed my brother.

e

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: emily
Date: Sun Jul 8 14:27:44 EDT 2007 Subject: objects of ministry

When I was in college a Bible Study leader wanted us to think about how often we think we are treating people as loved ones that we are ministering to when really we are treating them as objects --- objects of ministry.

The idea resonated right away as reflecting a reality that I had experienced often (I've been on both sides!). It also fit in to my scorn of organized ministry. When you organize to do ministry then other people are truly the objects of your ministry. They are your objective. If you get big enough, then each individual minister reaches a saturation point with how many people they can really be "friends" with and yet there are more people waiting in line for your services (gifts, what you have to offer, etc.). The relationship becomes naturally more of a "work-related" thing and now we have the infamous "objects of ministry"

After a while I decided I was being silly to think that all ministry should be disorganized in order to avoid the "object of ministry" thing. There had to be more to the story. So I am going to write about my attempt fight back the pride I like to feel about having the most right idea and my scorn for very organized religion. This is not meant to suggest that any of you guys previously posting have problems with this pride. I don't think that at all! I really agree with everything that was said.

At present I am interested in the idea that authenticity is at the core of a way to "do it all". People don't actually seem to mind being an object of ministry if that is what they are offered in the first place. It seems that many people are willing to go talk to a counselor knowing full well that they will not have the right to become a good friend just because they have shared intimate details of their life. I think that's because the relationship is highly defined. "We are not close friends but I care about strangers and am willing to listen to you and help if I can."

It seems that among Christians we have an idealistic sense that somehow we will all be able to act like family or at least very close friends. We know this isn't really possible but we aspire to it. It seems harsh to admit that many people in the body of Christ will fit more closely in to the category of "objects of ministry" (albeit beloved objects of ministry) rather than close friends or family.

Sometimes the tension of drawing boundaries is so hard that we either run ourselves ragged trying to be "close friends" with everybody or we give up and treat everyone as an object of ministry and have close friends outside the church where it's safe.

So my conclusion is: as much as I hate to admit it, there is a place for ministries like a mega-church or other "not very personal" ministries. Its a way to authentically offer services to the many. (Can you hear my teeth grinding as I admit that a mega-church is a way of being AUTHENTIC!!)

Emily

Edit this response
Write a response



From: eric
Date: Sun Jul 8 16:22:07 EDT 2007 Subject: Friendship

I think friendship is over-rated, or - at least the concept of having a best friend is deeply flawed.

What do you mean by - Authenticity as the "way to do it."

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author



From: emily
Date: Thu Jul 12 15:58:44 EDT 2007 Subject: best vs. close

Good question! I read my post over to see where I had mentioned "do it all" and realized that I was referring to something that looms over me like a statue looms over the people on the park bench below. Its something that is BIG to me so I forget that its not BIG to everyone.

My 'do it all' was in reference to the struggle to balance offering yourself to established/long term relationships and offering yourself to new/temporary relationships. When I have not applied thought and discipline to this balance then my natural inclination is to go with my extroverted/adventure nature. Established relationships get a passing nod while the excitement is in the unexplored territory of a new relationship. The only reason I have long term friends is that they are loyal types who don't give up when their friend is ignoring them. I'm trying to be more thoughtful about honoring those long term friendships.

And then there are the relationships like husband and kids and extended family. I used to think that I could go out and offer intimacy to whoever needed it during a given day and then come home and still be intimate with my family. I discovered that intimacy can get used up and rest has to happen before more intimacy can happen again. I can do mindless intimacy 24/7 - but true intimacy - where I am really present - that takes something out of me and there's not an unlimited supply (although it renews and in that sense is unlimited).

So when I have a conversation with my kid's teacher about things that really affect her intimately and I really put my heart in to caring about it. Intimacy goes there. Then when I take time to think intensely about someone in need and pray with all my heart for them. Intimacy goes there.

By the time the "public" part of the day is over and we're just the family at home - I might not have any intimacy left to give. My perception often was that the family was "asking too much". Or that there was some "issue" that made it hard to be present or want to be intimate with them. But when I experimented with cutting down on intimacy/intensity during the day - it seemed to be so much easier to just decide to be present with my family - even when I wasn't particularly inspired. What?! You mean you can schedule and organize intimacy availability?! How dreary and unromantic.

That discovery disappointed me and freed me at the same time. I was soooooo disappointed to have to think about applying discipline to intense or intimate interactions with people. And sometimes it FEELS so wrong to know that I can offer something intimate to someone that is right here! Right now! Isn't that living in the present? Being in the moment? "Here, share some of your heart with me and I'll try take good care of it."

Sigh. So how authenticity matters to me in this stuff is that I want to still be able to offer intensity and intimacy to people who will not turn in to long term relationships. But without thinking, I often offer a relationship that seems like I'm offering long term, intimate friendship. Later is becomes awkward and people get hurt when the reality of our relationship comes to light. Especially people who may not have other relationships or have some reason for really wanting me to be an intimate friend. They are willing to continue down a path to long term, closely bonded friendship. I didn't have space for that in the first place so I have to pull back. It hurts. It feels like a summer romance where intense things were said and one person took it to mean that the natural end would be marriage while the other just said things in the moment but had a sense that the overall relationship was just for the summer.

So I am trying to be more authentic from the beginning. I am practicing the discipline of being mindful of the future relationship when I am making choices about intimacy in the present. I am also trying to be mindful of the long term relationships that will need my intimacy later (later in the day or on the weekend or whatever...), when I am making choices about intimacy in the present.

Its ends up not being as unromantic as it first seemed! So trying to be authentic about what I can offer (which means thinking about it in the first place!) helps me to "do it all" in the sense of being able to interact with new/temporary relationships and still be fully present for my long term relationships.

I can listen to the call of the body of Christ to really care for one another and have a realistic sense of what that means for me instead of constantly feeling that I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. I can listen to the call of the unsaved saying "Care about me! Show me LIFE!" and feel confident that I am offering what I can, honestly, instead of feeling like I'm trading intimacy for the chance to make them disciples. (They might decide to be a disciple of Jesus but they are not likely to want to be MY disciple when I am honest about how much time and intimacy I can offer! Hee! Hee!)

But most of all, authenticity about how much intimacy I have to offer frees me up to take the time to look around at my old familiar relationships and find beauty and passion and mystery - even though I've been there many times before.

Well, that's my really long response about "doing it all". I suppose I expended intensity and intimacy for it...the rest of the day will have to be very shallow!

EmilyMc.

P.S. "Best friends" is a hard one since in grade school it was mostly used to exclude people from relationship. Its also a term that implies mutual commitment. I don't think there's anything wrong with being committed to friends. But what "being committed" is, when we are taking about friends, changes depending on who is defining it.

Edit this response
Write a response



From: eric
Date: Thu Jul 12 16:27:12 EDT 2007 Subject: Emily thxs

Thxs Emily, I wish I could write like you. Oh well. I totally agree with you.

On the the best friend thing. I think our culture is so wrapped up in the experience of having the best friend - who is an elusive person who makes me feel good about myself all the time, or promotes my selfishness(obviously the culture is full of good friendships too). Anyway, thxs for responding to my questions - I am speaking on friendship this Sunday, and I might suggest that people read your blog. I think it is a really healthy way to look at how to live in the world as a friend.

Enjoy your shallow day :)

Eric

Edit this response
Write a response Email the author


Write a blog
Latest Updates

blogs (upload)
eric: Parenting thoughts (8/11/14)
sunnygirl7d: Reuben fishing blog (1 resp) (8/8/14)
samantha: My new blog (8/11/14)
eric: New Website (8/7/14)
dbonilla: Annie Moses Band (3/14/14)
Suki: Ash Wednesday (3/5/14)
andrea: Good news update! (1 resp) (2/3/14)
Carena: More moving help (2/1/14)
Carena: A Friend in Need (3 resp) (1/25/14)
em: Tell me how I can pray (1/24/14)
andrea: Need for Volunteers-Foster Car... (1/19/14)
andrea: suffering (1/7/14)
rodhugen: Two quotes (2 resp) (1/3/14)
cwill: Please pray (2 resp) (1/26/24)
Carena: Polaroid Camera (12/23/13)

pictures (upload)
Suki: Vespers Dec 2012 (1/26/24)
eric: Ordination (3/16/14)
Suki: Soup Supper 2012 (3/17/14)
eric: Belonging 2012 (1/7/14)
eric: sabbath (3/16/14)

bios (upload)
Mike_Wise (1/16/13)
james (11/14/12)
clrclady (1/28/12)
SPark (11/27/11)
benjipark (12/2/10)

music (upload)
Frosted Flakes :
Everywhere j2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Flakes :
New Found Hope J2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Fla es :
Trinity Jan2014 (1/16/14)
Skeptic Chickens :
No Condemnation (7/29/13)
Karen and Friends :
Breastplate May 5 (5/10/13)

sermons (upload)
Eric,Ron Layman: The Disciplines RL (3/6/14)
Eric: Habakkuk Part One (1/16/14)
Eric: Noah's Ark (9/27/13)
Eric: The Fall (9/13/13)
Rod: Creation (9/13/13)

Villagersonline.com 2010
Contact Us
(edit) Site Meter
Free Search Engine Submission
Free Search Engine Submission

"Best Viewed at 1024x768 under the light of the full moon in July while Mercury is in Leo
and six pigmy marmosets do the lambada behind you singing Kumbaya" -- User Friendly