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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Mon Jun 21 14:00:12 EDT 2010
Subject: Hell

Responses
Mike_Wise: No Subject (6/22/10)
rodhugen: No Subject (6/22/10)

Mike_Wise: Thanks Rod (6/23/10)

eric: A Short Response (6/23/10)

Responses (sorted by date)
eric: A Short Response (6/23/10)
Mike_Wise: Thanks Rod (6/23/10)
rodhugen: No Subject (6/22/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (6/22/10)

This is a tough one to write about.
I honestly cannot tell you completly what I think and feel about the Doctrine of hell and the doctrine of endless punishment. I can tell you it is my issues with this docrtine that was one of the reasons I left the church in the first place.
There are many Christians who believe that those who are not saved at the time of their death will be sent to the lake of fire forever and will be brutally tortured forever. Will cry and scream and be brutalized forever. Will hunger thirst and be fearful FOREVER!
Maybe its true but it doesn't line up with what I have come to know as the character of God.
The Character of God that I have seen both in the bible and in the glimpses I have seen of him in my own life are that of a father who wants the absolute best for his kids. Now of course being human we mess us and sometimes there is need for correction. I think God does allow us to go through hell even here on earth and I suspect that 'eternity' will be no different. I am not foolish enough to believe that everyone will come to belief by the end of their time on earth and person God will allow people to go through some punishment after we die but in the end doesn't the Bible say that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord? Would that be a forced confession? Or will eventually every soul ever created come to know the healing power of the God of this world? I don't know
My soul cries daily for answers on this, true honest answers that don't come from dogma or human's influence on the bible and the movement of Christianity and I am constantly led to verses and ideas that show me that God is working his good pleasure in the world and his redemptive plan IS FOR ALL! I am also finding that even hinting at that idea is not popular at all. I don't know I cannot imagine a heaven without people I love and care about being there and not everyone I love is Christian and I cannot know if they ever will be. For ten years I was not a Christian for 10 years I felt hurt and betrayed by the God that created me, for many years before that even though I loved God with all I was I felt like he didn't love me. I felt that he was ashamed of me. That I was some sort of joke he put on the face of the earth for others to laugh at. I imagined myself going to hell because for whatever reason my salvation didn't take and the hell I imagined wasn't fire it was much worse. It was an inky thick darkness that you were constantly aware of. No one else was there just you alone in this inky fog of nothingness. The void.
No I don't have any answers I wish I could say I knew God's heart on this matter but I don't I feel like if I say I believe, or hope for universal reconciliation that people will refuse to accept me as a Christian. My fears about hell not only for myself but for other people I love make me feel very isolated and alone.
Thanks for reading. If I post too much here please let me know.

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Tue Jun 22 18:44:55 EDT 2010
Subject:

I hate when no one knows what to say.

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From: rodhugen
Date: Tue Jun 22 19:23:14 EDT 2010
Subject:

It is dangerous to assume no one knows what to say. Sometimes people post. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes life interferes and they can't. We have all posted lots of things here and lots of times no one responds. Not everyone is a writer and not everyone dares to put their words up in the electron world. I was busy earlier and didn't have time to respond.
Hell is a tough subject. So is heaven, for that matter. The problem is that we have a perfect God. He is perfectly just and perfectly loving and perfectly gracious and perfectly powerful and perfectly whatever other attribute that we can name. He said that if we sin we must die. We sinned. We must die. But as Hosea 11 so beautifully states: All his mercy is aroused and he will not carry out his fierce anger. He pursues us and sends someone to bear the totality of his perfect wrath. I don't know what lies in store for those who reject God completely. I don't know what the 'end' looks like. I do know that God hates sin and that he pursues us in our sin. I know that he is love. The Bible doesn't say that he loves, it says that he is love. His essence is love. That is good news to me as I struggle in my sin and my shame. It is why I know that if I must choose, I choose to claim Christ's work for myself. And I invite anyone who will listen to make the same claim.
Thanks for posting. Keep it up even when no one responds. It might be because what you said is so brilliant that there is literally no response to be made. That is what I pretend when no one responds to what I write. :)
Rod

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Tue Jun 22 20:11:52 EDT 2010
Subject: Thanks Rod

Thanks for responding Rod and yes I need to remember that just because no one responds doesn't mean people aren't hearing me. I just feel so lost and confused sometimes in my renewed faith it's good to know there are people who are looking out for me and won't let me fall back into the hole I clawed myself out of.
Your words give me a lot of hope as does God himself when I pray to him. When I met with Julie yesterday she said you were gifted at discerning spirits and sometimes I wish I was a little better at that. I wish I could tell what was truly the spirit of God and what was a spirit of greed of selfishness of anger or fear.
As the wonderfully talented but tormeted musician Daniel Johnston once said. "I believe in God, and I certainly believe in the devil. There’s certainly a devil, and he knows my name.” The Devil has been trying for 10 years to destroy me and he almost has a few times. I dunno if there really is a Devil or if the devil we know is just metaphors for our own confusion and shortcomings but either way I am blessed to still be alive.

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From: eric
Date: Wed Jun 23 13:51:38 EDT 2010
Subject: A Short Response

Hell
[Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...]
Hell is a complicated issue in some ways, because the images we have seem to all revolve around fire, burning, and a guy in red who carries a pitch fork. The Bible, however, doesn’t give us a very definitive picture of hell. Instead, Jesus and the other writers of Scripture use metaphors to illustrate the experience of separation from God. Gnashing of teeth, lakes of fire, and physical removal from a wedding feast are a few of these. What is really clear is that our sin separates us from God, and that our sin has dire consequences on our own eternal destiny. The choices we make regarding our relationship with God do have an impact on our life after death. While reflecting on these ideas, I find it reassuring that Scripture repeatedly emphasizes God’s sovereignty, goodness and love. Whatever happens to people, myself included, after we die, rests in the hands of a sovereign, good, and loving God who was willing to suffer for us by putting His own son on the cross to die for our sins. The Bible itself, and the gospels in particular, clearly show that once you become a follower of Christ, it is not a part of your commission or your life’s work to figure out who is in and who is out. What is part of your commission and your discipleship is to go tell people about Jesus and teach them how to follow Him. I think it is important, when considering hell, to be very conscious of God’s holiness, His goodness, and His sovereign involvement in our lives.

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