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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Sat Aug 14 19:37:42 EDT 2010 Subject: God has a great plan for your life

Responses
lizzies: No Subject (8/15/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (8/16/10)
clrclady: What if? (8/16/10)
Mike_Wise: All things for Good (8/16/10)
clrclady: Questioning God (8/17/10)
eric: A nervous upload (8/20/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (8/23/10)
Responses (sorted by date)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (8/23/10)
eric: A nervous upload (8/20/10)
clrclady: Questioning God (8/17/10)
Mike_Wise: All things for Good (8/16/10)
clrclady: What if? (8/16/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (8/16/10)
lizzies: No Subject (8/15/10)
When I was a Christian before, before I fell into doubt and fear and anger and before my worldview was shaped by the world itself and not the candy coated idea that I wanted the world to be, I used to thank that God had a step by step plan as to how my life would be and turn out. I believed he knew what I would do for a living and who I would marry and all of these intricate details of my life and not only mine but everyone else. I believed that God marked our steps in life before we took them but then things started happening at random and it felt chaotic and there just seemed no way that it could’ve been planned by anyone.

I remember when the first person I knew had a successful suicide. I didn’t know her as well as I wanted but she was this sweet and smiling short Hispanic girl named Kandace who I really wished I could have known better. She sat next to me in math class and we’d talk briefly, never in great detail she’d always ask what I had going on and because I wasn’t popular I didn’t have much to say. Then I remember we started laughing about that beggin strips commercial that was on all the time in the 90′s. The one with the dog that was always talking about bacon. “There’s only one thing that smells like Bacon AND THAT’S BACON!!!!!” We’d take turns doing the voice before or after class and laugh. I remember seeing her one last time before I left Farmington at the pizza hut she worked at cause I went in to eat the lunch buffet. She gave me a slip of paper with her address on it and asked me to write and I promised I would, even though I knew I was horrible at correspondence. I remember her and these little details about the personality that she presented to me what I didn’t know was the details about her abusive father and checked out mother. I didn’t know that the only real friends she had got her all the crank(meth) she could ingest for free. And as she handed me that slip of paper that summer I didn’t know in a few short months she would shut herself in her father closet with her fathers gun and take her own life. God had a plan for her life?

I remember Amanda I remember meeting her at TEC Teens Encounter Christ, I remember she had major depression and I remember she was addicted to cigarettes, But I also remember she had a heart on fire for Jesus and she had an unwavering faith in him. I remember long phone conversations and letters with her and we would encourage each other to be strong in our individual trials. I remember how she’d hug too, She give the longest tightest hugs and they always made you feel like you were cared for more than you deserved to be. It was really exciting cause at the time we met she lived in Los Alamos and I lived in Farmington and that was a long ways away but soon we’d both be moving to Colorado. We were both really excited about being within 30 min drive of each other so we could do fun things like going to coffee and hanging out and studying the bible and things that Teen Christians do. I also remember the day she called me and told me she could not talk to myself or my brother anymore and I remember the day my brother tried calling her and then her father calling my father and telling us to not contact her. I didn’t know why back then and I remember how I felt hurt and betrayed by this.

I remember aspects of her personality that she showed me and those letters and phone calls and times we hung out at teen retreats what I didn’t know about was her addiction to heroin. I didn’t know that she would die the same day as my brother from an OD, I wrote her letters at the only email I had for her in 2002 which she would never get cause she was dead. I didn’t know she was dead until 2005. God’s plan?

I could share many stories just like these, stories that shook my faith not only in the idea of God’s perfect induvidual plan for me but also shook my faith in a God at all.

My friend Dina Kucera is a writer, and in her book she talks about this idea which she called Divine Order and her thoughts are that God’s plan for your life is something to try to live up to but because we are human we screw it up. Not only for ourselves but for others as well.

I look at it a bit different than Dina. I love God and I believe in him but I have doubt about whether or not he has a plan for our life. I also have deep doubt about God’s foreknowledge, I don’t think God see’s everything before it happens, and the idea of God not having foreknowledge doesn’t lessen his holiness at all in my eyes. I don;t think God sat down and wrote the story of my life before I was born and knew how it would end p, nor do I even think he wrote an outline that he hopes that we can aspire too as long as we don’t get in our own way or each others way. I think God has an idea for who we could be and what we could bring to the world, he creates us like a painting like a song, gives us our own voice and some talents that we can use and sends us off into a world where nothing is guaranteed and life gets messy.

I think Kandace’s plan, Amanda’s plan was the same as all of our plans. Survive as long as you can, love as many as you can and leave the place a little better than it was when you came in. I disagree with many people on this I know but I don’t think the end of the story has been written, neither individually nor collectively. I think we are working with God to write it as we go and that was the plan all along. If you don’t get married to that girl, or if you don’t get that job or if you end up puking your guts out while dying of heroin I don’t think it’s because God planned it that way or that you failed to live up to the plan that God hoped for, or even that something got in the way to interfere with god’s plan. I think that God’s plan for us is to give us certain tools and let us free into the garden to play. Ultimately, collectively I believe God’s plan to be about redemption and restoration but beyond that, as my wife would say, life is a choose your own adventure book.

,,,,,,and I think I am ok with that.

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From: lizzies
Date: Sun Aug 15 19:26:28 EDT 2010 Subject:

What if God does have a plan for your life and in His love He let's you choose your own adventure at the same time? What if He knows the ending, but He still allows you to choose what you are going to do? What if He chose you long ago and even now with all of your doubt, anger and fear, He loves you and uses those things to draw you in to deeper relationship with Himself? What if He loved Kandace and Amanda and your brother in spite of their sin and their own "adventures" but He still sent His Son to die for them? What if He wept when they decided to choose their own ending instead of accepting His grace? What if life is about way more than "being nice" and "trying to make a difference"? What if we didn't try to figure out the plan of a Sovereign God but rather lived every moment captured by the thought of a Savior who loves us wherever we're at? What if our lives were a response to a loving Father Who wants the best for His children despite the times we kick and scream and yell, "You don't know what's best for me" like the rebellious teenagers we are?

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Mon Aug 16 01:19:38 EDT 2010 Subject:

Hi Lizzie,
Interesting an thought provoking questions for sure and those kind of questions run through my head all the time. Lets suppose all that were true.
God knows the end of the story and he creates us anyway and gives us the ability to choose, knowing full well what we will choose but allowing it to play out anyway. If this were a story of fiction, a great epic of prose and poetry than the 'character' of God would be one that would elicit great sympathy from the reader. He creates his children knowing before he does this what grave danger they will get themselves into. He allows it to play out those because he refuses to force the hand of anyone. Who could not feel sorry for such a character? God is of course much much more than a character in a story I was just using this as an illustration.

This very well could be the truth and also it proves why I could never be God. I would be crushed under the weight of the sadness of the reality of this. The fact that God, at anytime could change the game but refuses to, knows those he created will destroy themselves and will basically watch it play out perhaps wishing that he DIDN'T know the end of the story. I know a lot of people that believe in this, I don't but I know many that do and I understand why they do but it raises too many issues for me.

I do not think that God has ultimate foreknowledge freewill makes no sense in that context, I say that knowing fully I could be wrong about it. I think God chose us all and he chooses us all every single day that we live and he has fallen in love with us because he created us out of love and we will hopefully continue to fall in love with him because here is the creator of everything we are and everything we know and yet he wants us to know him intimately. The narrative in the bible to me is truly a love story between God and us. The world and sin are the other lovers that try to woo us from God but God continues to sacrifice everything for his bride, even unto his death. The Bible, the worlds steamiest romance novel but I've gotten off track here. I hope I made at least SOME sense.

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From: clrclady
Date: Mon Aug 16 02:19:06 EDT 2010 Subject: What if?

I like Liz's response and Your thoughts that God is sad. Scripture says He is grieved by the state of the world right now -that is why He sent His Son to have relationship and save it, but that plan was put into place long before that, way back in the garden with Adam and Eve.

I would like to challenge the foreknowledge and freewill for a moment. God is not restricted to time or space. He does not live our our time table. At this very moment, it God's perspective - it is all over - the end has happened - all mankind have lived their live made their choices and we are all in Heaven because He sees it all not restricted to to human time. a year, a day, is all man made earthly time - it is not Spiritual - God time. He is not limited to it, nor bond by it. This is one of the reasons he could tell the prophets what would happen to the people if they kept choosing to not follow God because he could see it all play out.

Another challenge, is that He works all things for good. We may not see it now, we may not see it in this life time, but all things are worked for good. I can honestly say, that it was for the good of my relationship with God, the good of others, and the good of furthering God's kingdom for me to have been raped, ritualistically abused, beat, and abandoned by my family. And I am not the only victim of sexual abuse or ritualistic abuse who has come to the strong belief. My grandfather also committed suicide and although it was one of the most destructive things in my life at the time, without it I would have never come to now Christ as I did. God works all for the good even though worst of sin.

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Mon Aug 16 12:21:46 EDT 2010 Subject: All things for Good

I would certainly agree that God can make the best out of the worst situations. I've seen evidence of that in my own life. There are lessons I would not have learned had it not been for the horrible things I've gone through and have become a stronger, more spiritually enriched, person because of them.

I would still argue that the idea of God having complete foreknowledge of everything just isn't feesable and leaves way too many theological landmines in our spiritual walk. If God knows everything, the fate of every single person, including, if you believe in eternal torment, where every single person will spend eternity than it's completely inhumane to make those that are destined for that torment. Create them and thrust them into this life let them suffer here only to have the rest of eternity to suffer. Whether or not God grieves for these people is a moot point, if he knew their fate then creating them was simply a bad idea. If God had foreknowledge in these area's than surely he could've seen the mistakes he was making. Complete foreknowledge nullifies the reality of freewill also, it simply would not exist if anyone knew the total end result.

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From: clrclady
Date: Tue Aug 17 12:56:47 EDT 2010 Subject: Questioning God

I have argued with God and questioned God and argued with God and wrestled with God a lot in my life. And there is a place and time that you have to do this. Put if we have to have it all figured out I think we are going to be very frustrated and unjoyful. Scripture says we only see in part here and do not fully understand anything and that God is a mystery and how he works is a mystery. If we take the mystery out of God, He is not really God. Also, how can we as finite creatures expect to fully understand an infinite God. I believe life is full of messiness and paradoxes that we do not understand and won't fully until we get to Heaven. I would also be careful at declaring something not so because it is not comprehensible to one's understanding. I declared a lot of things not so because they were not comprehensible to my understanding at the time and God over time has given me understand and made me realize the things I said were never true, really were true. My suggestion is to listen to Job 38 and on for a little bit and get some perceptive of who God really is. It has helped me. Who are we (mere man) to question God? If God decides something and is like something, who are we to say He is not. I also encourage you to wrestle through this path trying to understand scripture and God through His word because His word is the the only true thing that brings clarity. That is what Hebrews 4:12 says and it is the only true thing that completely teaches us and equips us 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Love you, Mike.

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From: eric
Date: Fri Aug 20 15:26:47 EDT 2010 Subject: A nervous upload

Some unfinished Thoughts
The conversation which tries to make sense of the interplay between God’s sovereignty and our free will has been ongoing for centuries and intensified at points to incite outright war. The extreme ends of the spectrum may both lead to despair. The idea that God knows everything we are going to do and planned it out before time leaves us wondering if we are mere chess pieces in some cosmic game, while the belief that we choose our own destiny often leaves us with a God who is watching from afar. One of the main causes for our current struggles with this question is that for the last 500 years, we have been plagued by the ideals of the enlightenment and the linear thought model of the Greco-Romans. The first thing we have to accept when we approach this issue is the fact that biblically we do not have a free will. Our brains, bodies, and will are so broken by sin that we don’t have the capacity for objective, uncorrupted volition. The second thing we must understand is that when the Bible talks about God’s sovereignty and our will, it is not speaking about them in an “either/or” perspective, but in a Hebrew “both/and” perspective. That is, that God’s sovereignty is unquestionable in that he has a plan for our life in which he invites us to join him. There are aspects of the plan which we cannot escape. If we choose to join Jesus in his mission, he promises to embark upon freeing our will from sin so that we can objectively choose what is good without the cloud of evil.

God’s Goodness
The two questions that we all must face if the preceding is true are these: “Is God good?” and “Does He love me?” We must decide if we will accept what scripture says regarding God’s goodness and holiness. We must consider whether we will embrace Christ’s sacrifice as an example of God’s goodness to us and his love for us. Mike, when I read the stories of the people you love dearly whose lives ended in a seemingly untimely way, and the question you pose: “Was this God’s plan?”, my answer is both a resounding “Yes, this was God’s plan” and a firm belief that “Their choices contributed.” I am comfortable with both the dichotomy and the grief that this answer represents. The reason is that I deeply believe that God is good and that He loves us.

Let me quickly address the question of whether God creates some people for good and others for destruction. God created humans to be in relationship with him, to worship him, and to represent him to all of creation. The Fall has tainted our relationship, our worship, and our image, creating a sadistically evil, chaotic world, which was then handed over, for a time, to Satan. The entire Old Testament wrestles with how it is possible for a sovereign, holy God to love us while our lives and our world are spinning out of control. From that perspective, we often try to explain God’s sovereignty and our purpose in life. So we agonize over verses that say, “God hardened Pharaoh's heart” or “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” or the demonstration of God’s justice through the plagues of Egypt. The answer, however, in a very Hebrew sense, of whether people are created for good or destruction, is that God created people for good, and then people destroyed themselves. When it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, the reason is that God is sovereign over Pharaoh's and every other hardened heart. So God is responsible for them, even though these people also chose them. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of God’s mercy such as Manasseh, the evil king who cried out for help and received it. Or David’s evil choices which were followed by repentance, discipline, and forgiveness.

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Mon Aug 23 15:29:00 EDT 2010 Subject:

Eric thank you for your response, I enjoy our conversations.

You got me thinking though, in the end who is ultimately responsible for what happens here? If we truly don't have free will and bad things happens is God responsible for that?

I must admit that these mysteries are of such that I have a hard time of understanding them, but I try.

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