Villagersonline : blogs : Mike

From: Mike_Wise
Date: Mon Jul 12 15:52:22 EDT 2010
Subject: At Odds

Responses
clrclady: Just a random bit (7/13/10)

Mike_Wise: No Subject (7/13/10)

russ: My change over time (7/13/10)

Mike_Wise: No Subject (7/13/10)

clrclady: Beautiful (7/14/10)

Responses (sorted by date)
clrclady: Beautiful (7/14/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (7/13/10)
russ: My change over time (7/13/10)
Mike_Wise: No Subject (7/13/10)
clrclady: Just a random bit (7/13/10)

I find myself at odds with things I have learned throughout the years and my renewed beliefs in God and Jesus. It's an interesting place to be, and I find myself questioning what does one really need to believe in order to be a follower of Jesus?
Does one need to believe that the bible is complete and inerrant? If so I don't think I'd make that good of a Christian, I see the bible as certainly an inspired work but nonetheless the work of men. I see it as a politically compiled anthology of scrolls that were taken down by scribes after hundreds of retellings in the old oral tradition. I see Gospels that were written well after the fact of the source(Jesus) and I see names of authors slapped onto them that couldn't read or write much less author a gospel. I see inconsistency in the narrative and I see contradiction.
Does one need to believe in the virgin birth? If so I don't think I'd be that good of a Christian, virgin births were very commonplace in Jesus's day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births It was a common practice for the early Christian church to borrow and adapt fundamentals of other pagan deity's of the day to try to attract the pagans of those religions to become followers of Christ.
Does one have to believe in the literal creation story? If so I don't think I'd make that good of a Christian. There is no scientifically sound explanation for the events that happened in Genesis. Taking things on faith can only go so far and taking the Christian creation myth as a literal scientific explanation on how life began on this planet can lead to very dangerous practices.
Given these issues and more it is a wonder if I could be a Christian at all. I war with this for my faith is true but here is all of this additional baggage that I cannot accept as truth. Some would probably accuse me of creating my own religion, some already have and let them, so be it. The love of Christ and the calling of Christ to be a beacon of light onto this dark world is the only belief that I need.
If I read the bible as literal I get lost, I get confused and I begin to see the errors and inconsistencies. I see a belief that cannot stand the test of time. But if I read the bible spiritually, metaphorically, and I remember that the book is not complete, the story is still being told today, then I see a living God who was working with the lost then and is still working with us now. The bible isn't the be all and end all, it's a guide, it's a jumping off point. It's the invitation to the journey of God and Man, it's a telling story of a love affair between God and his creation. It's a collection of 66 different writings that aren't put together chronologically, but are rather woven together as different anthologies to the one great truth.
I don't follow Jesus because I have unwavering faith nor do I follow him because I am convinced that everything I believe is true. I do not follow Jesus so that I might feel free to sit in judgment of the world. I follow Jesus because I'm broken, because I have doubt, because I needed to feel the saturation of love that only God can give and I desire to share that experience with any and all I meet. I follow Jesus because beneath everything it is who I am, and who I always have been. Like the Prodigal I walked out of my fathers house intent on going my own way and living my own life because of hurt and confusion and yes, anger. But that made me no less my fathers son. Like the prodigal I was allowed to return home. That's why I follow Jesus. It's not because the bible is without error, or that Mary was a virgin or that Creation happened just like it says in the bible. It's because Jesus came to me in my darkest hour and told me his grace was sufficient to handle everything, my doubts, my fears and even my anger, even if my anger was pointed at him. That's why I am a Christian

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From: clrclady
Date: Tue Jul 13 02:01:02 EDT 2010
Subject: Just a random bit

Not going to argue all your thoughts here. I believe you are chosen of God and He loves you and you are following Jesus as you can right now and that is all we all can do as God continues to grow us closer to Him. But I would like to say one thing. The Holy Spirit is powerful and can do all things beyond what we can imagine or comprehend including inspiring and preserving scripture and having a virgin birth that was truly real. It is all a matter of faith and belief in a powerful God that is beyond us. Secondly, the disciples and Jesus were probably literate. Jewish custom was to teach their children the Torah and to read. Although, they did not have "formal" training. It is an atheistic myth that they could not read. It was Jewish custom to read the scriptures, memorize the scriptures, and recite the scriptures being orthodox Jews. This is an interesting article on the topic and the debate: http://www.craigaevans.com/evans.pdf. Also, the Gospels were oral for a while, but were truly written by John Mark, Matthew, John, and Luke. Writing from that time period including Josephus and Papias support this.
However, the bottom line is even if you do not understand everything in the Bible or there seems to be contradictions ( which I have read it several times and studied a lot and there are not - there are paradoxes that are sometimes incomprehendable because we are finite people dealing with an infinite God, but not contradictions), do you believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who is God. And the power of God being sovereign and bigger than your understanding.

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Tue Jul 13 11:49:05 EDT 2010
Subject:

I think at this point it's not God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit that I have trouble having faith in, it's us, and our ability to get near anything write.
I don't want to be seen as someone who doesn't believe that the Bible is a Holy book but it's holiness APPEARS(not IS but APPEARS) dimmer because it is buried under human interpretation. Whenever we individually read the bible we interpret what we read and we are interpreting interpretations. It's a slippery slope. that one must be careful of when they are traversing it. I've studied a lot of how the books were written and more importantly the political fashion in which they were voted upon and put together as a single cannon. I think that was less God and more Constantine at work there. But please don't take anything I am saying as fact I'm working it all out as I go along.

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From: russ
Date: Tue Jul 13 14:57:37 EDT 2010
Subject: My change over time

These sort of questions used to be a big issue for me. I grew up in a Baptist, modernist church, where the question of literal interpretation, and of precise inerrancy, was viewed as very important. I was one of those guys who took the "it's all absolutely true" viewpoint.
In the church I grew up in, I was taught that the various "dramatic" spiritual gifts were now idle; that things like prophecy, miracles, and tongues were gifts that were given for a specific time and place but which were no longer active. The explanation given was that these were gifts which were meant to announce the power of God to a culture; in a culture such as ours, where Christianity is already well-established (yeah, there's all sorts of caveats to that, which I won't discuss here), the theory was that the "sign gifts" were no longer active.
I don't remember how or why I started to disagree with that viewpoint, but I remember, somewhere in high school, starting to pray that I would be ready to believe and act if/when God wanted to act in a more direct fashion. It started to change how I prayed, and how I expected God to respond. When somebody was sick and asked for prayer, I started to be more bold about asking God to heal them. It was a strange balance; trying to expect God to act, and yet trying to be ready to accept if he didn't. I still don't know how to handle that.
I started asking for God to speak to me more directly and more clearly. As part of that, I started to listen more carefully, and to give action to the small leadings that seemed to be Him. Very often, I can't tell for sure if God is talking, or if it is just the random wanderings of my mind...but sometimes, odd, powerful things happen when I follow something which *might* be God.
Over the course of years, God has occasionally acted in some very direct ways. I actually healed a person, once (ask me sometime...it's a funny and ironic story!). I've seen demons and angels now and then, and even battled them in a very direct, (almost) physical fashion.
More to the point, I hear God speak, sometimes, inside my head. Typically, it is the quiet voice, which I can't be sure is actually Him and not me. Occasionally, it is quite clearly Him. Sometimes, he speaks to me, sometimes, he leads me how to speak to, or interact with, others.
When God leads me in how to interact with others, He does amazing things. Yet he does it through me; His action is affected by my choices, by my personality, and skills. It's an exhilarating thing, to walk away from a conversation simultaneously believing that God worked in mighty ways, and that I did something amazing for Him.
Yet it's also terrifying, because I wonder if somehow, I screwed it all up, got in the way, and lessened the impact of what God was about. In those moments, I remind myself that God's sovereignty is enough to take care of my mistakes (and sin!), to fix them, to cover them, or even to redeem them into something wonderful.
So when I read that "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim 3:16), I don't view it the way I did as I grew up. I no longer see this as a binary perfection/humanness distinction. I now see this as a dynamic, relational, interactive enterprise between God and man. God moves, man responds, and then God fixes things up to make sure it all comes out the way that it ought. God doesn't eliminate the influence of man; he crafts it into something greater than man.
Thus, I have no problem in simultaneously believing that Scripture is perfect an inerrant, and yet seeing the humanity of the writers. In fact, I exult in it. I can see the artistry of the stage direction in Job, the flawed mathematics of Kings, or even the ambiguous double depiction of creation; I marvel in the fact that God breathed these words, and breathed them through the mouths of flawed humans, and that God felt so secure in his own action that he allowed us to literally affect the outcome.
And I feel peace that the end result needs not to be mathematically perfect in every detail; it is sufficient for every purpose for which God designed it. For this reason, it is authoritative in my life, and binding.

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From: Mike_Wise
Date: Tue Jul 13 17:31:23 EDT 2010
Subject:

Russ what you've written here was really great. It explains it in a way that truly makes sense to me. Perhaps God was working through your words there.
I have felt led, to write, to be as honest and open about everything I have and am feeling and thinking, I've felt the need to make sure I leave nothing out even when it comes to doubt and fear, ESPECIALLY when it comes to doubt and fear. I am not entirely sure as to why but I have some idea's.
I don't want anyone who reads my stuff to come away with the fact that I doubt the devinity of the bible, or that I don't believe this doctrine or that doctrine. I have walked out of 10 years of deep doubt and agnosticism and I am looking for whatever strong foundation of faith that I can so I don't wander off to sea. I don't know what I believe aside from the basics. I do have some strong issues with certain doctrines that may or may not be true and if they are true I don't quite know what to do with them or myself.
I'm messed up, I'm trying not to be so messed up. I appreciate all the love, the support and prayer and kindess that I have gotten from you and everyone. Thank you for your continued patience. I don't know what God has planned but I'm just doing my best to try and follow the call.

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From: clrclady
Date: Tue Jul 13 20:45:01 EDT 2010
Subject: Beautiful

Russ thanks for sharing and Mike thanks for sharing that is beautiful. I think life is a journey that we are all on as we get closer to God. I like the analogy of the onion. God peels of sin and wounds and issues, one little layer at a time. If he went after all of it and cut into the onion, the onion would be misshapen and destroyed. God reveals things that we have to wrestle with and work through one piece at a time and gives us grace to walk through that sin, issue, doubt, wound. And through that struggle if we preserve, we are made stronger and more mature and complete (James 1:2-4). It is more about sticking with Him, believing what He gives us to believe and wrestling through things with Him and with His community then arriving. We will never arrive (per say) until we get to even. But God promises that we will be transformed from one degree of glory to the next degree of glory into the likeness of Christ (Amplified version of 2 Corinthians 3:18). We get transformed by the renewing of our mind (Romans 12:1-2) and we renew out mind with every word that comes from God which is the truth and truth will set us free (John 8:31-32). But it is all a wrestling process and Jesus was OK with doubt, he healed the man's son who said,"I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24 and on). I pray that for you often, you do belief help with him Jesus with his unbelief and struggles. God will meet you there; God meets you where ever you are, you just have to turn and cry out and trust as you can.

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