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From: GaryG
Date: Wed Nov 3 09:42:47 MST 2004 Subject: Out of step

Responses
russ: Compassion (11/3/04)
Karen: Can of worms...? (11/3/04)
GaryG: thanks (11/3/04)
Karen: Bible Belt (11/3/04)
paulmo: Feeling a bit droopy m'self (11/4/04)
GaryG: Heard that (11/4/04)
eric: ah (11/4/04)
GaryG: Future profits (11/4/04)
Karen: The prophet margin (11/4/04)
paulmo: Prophet = painful (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I have a different take (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I'm confused (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I have a different take (11/5/04)
GaryG: Morals and such (11/5/04)
ryan: different takes love (11/5/04)
MaryKay: Granny speaks (11/5/04)
GaryG: Grandma rules! (11/5/04)
Krysti: the same (11/6/04)
mike: No Subject (11/7/04)
mike: Round Tables (11/7/04)
Responses (sorted by date)
mike: Round Tables (11/7/04)
mike: No Subject (11/7/04)
Krysti: the same (11/6/04)
GaryG: Grandma rules! (11/5/04)
MaryKay: Granny speaks (11/5/04)
GaryG: Morals and such (11/5/04)
ryan: different takes love (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I have a different take (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I'm confused (11/5/04)
Kathryn: I have a different take (11/5/04)
paulmo: Prophet = painful (11/5/04)
Karen: The prophet margin (11/4/04)
eric: ah (11/4/04)
GaryG: Future profits (11/4/04)
GaryG: Heard that (11/4/04)
paulmo: Feeling a bit droopy m'self (11/4/04)
Karen: Bible Belt (11/3/04)
GaryG: thanks (11/3/04)
Karen: Can of worms...? (11/3/04)
russ: Compassion (11/3/04)
Well, let me apologize in advance for any remarks I might make that will offend my more conservative minded brothers and sisters. I really want to express my heart, not whine or debate. It looks like W has won, and quite convincingly if you look at the popular vote. It appears that the large turnout did not help the Democrats, as the Bush camp did an excellent job of mobilizing their base. It seems to me that Bush's endorsement of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage was a stroke of political genius, as it really solidified his base of conservative "evangelical Christians". And that is precisely why I feel upset, confused and totally out of touch with all these people who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Suffice it to say that I am not the typical "American Christian"; I am fanatical about separation of church and state, I don't feel threatened by gay marriage, I believe the abortion issue is a spiritual and not a legal one, I put my loyalty to the Kingdom of God before my loyalty to my country. I am not a dispensationalist/premillenialist and I believe very strongly in granting rights and statehood to the Palestinians, and I believe our unconditional support of Israel despite their human rights violations is wrong. Do you see where I'm going with this? According to what I've just stated, I am in disagreement with the overwhelming majority of people calling themselves Christians in this country...and I mean major disagreement. I see some of these people on TV, and I don't just mean the typical Pat Robertson types, but the average conservative American Christian, and I think "I cannot relate to you. I do not know you. I do not want to be like you in any way." I feel so out of place right now, I even find myself questioning who I am and what I believe and thinking "if this is Christianity, I want no part of it" (hey, remember that blog about not calling me a Christian any longer? :-)
So, I am not looking to debate these issues, I just wanted to share how I feel and invite any of you to share your thoughts with me...am I just doomed to be a heretic?

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From: russ
Date: Wed Nov 3 10:07:48 MST 2004 Subject: Compassion

It's easy for us to look people who have different viewpoints and say "there must be something wrong with you." I am often tempted to look at typical American Christianity that way.

The reason I can't do that is because I know many of those people. I grew up with them, inside the traditional church, and I know their hearts. They really, truly, love God, want to serve him, and honestly believe that their views are what God wants. I disagree with them on many things about what we should believe and what we should do. But I can't bring myself to say that their hearts aren't in the right place.

And in truth, who am I to say that I am right and they are wrong?

I don't expect that everybody has to feel as charitably toward them as I do. If you didn't grow up inside, and don't have close relationships with such people today, then you don't really have any reason to understand them.

But if you get a chance, find some little prayer warrior grandmother to hang out with. Try to be quiet when she rants and raves about her various political and theological things that you disagree with. Keep in relationship until you recognize her heart, which deeply loves God.

I don't think that it will be us revolutionaries, with all the "right" ideas, that will be honored by God one day. It will be the quiet little grandmothers who have spent the last 60+ years earnestly serving the Lord as best they knew how.

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From: Karen
Date: Wed Nov 3 13:47:33 MST 2004 Subject: Can of worms...?

Hey Gary---sure, I agree with most of your politics. I also have the complex life experience of having grown up in evangelical culture, which I fell out of love with sometime around the time I hit adolescence when the message was clearly conveyed to me that listening to Amy Grant & Petra albums was "better" (more Christian? more...? I dunno, they never really explained, they just implied) than listening to the Police, U2, or Howard Jones. Although I chose not to back away from my commitment to Christ, my commitment to individual Christians, and certainly to Christian culture as a whole has been challenged again and again. For example: Heidi, a dear Christian friend I've known since 1983 (who incidentally will be visiting the Village this Sunday), is a conservative evangelical, although her world view was a complicated a bit by the fact that she spent her childhood in the Phillippines & Venezuela. We respect each other, often agreeing to disagree, and we live in the tension of having different points of view on many things. Very many. But we also do connect on several things that matter. And there is a certain richness when you do connect with someone "different" from you. As I'm sure will be true for my relationships with several of you at the Village.

Russ, your point about getting to know the grandmother is well taken, but the trouble is that it takes effort, grace and gentleness from both sides to interact honestly across a cultural-life experience divide. It also requires opportunity, because our society has become increasingly factioned off to the point that it's bloody hard to get to know a grandmother if she ain't yours, if you don't "already" know her. I do know a couple of "prayer warrior grandmothers," I suppose... one is the aforementioned friend's mother ;-) Another is Emily & Benji's mom. And don't forget Mary Kay! (I've known Mary Kay--Mrs. Wodrich--since the time my high school youth group used to swim in her & Tom's pool.)

Same topic, different angle: I was watching the election results w/my family last night. My mother had already gotten irritated with her pastor's e-mailed implications that the faithful Christians should vote for W. Then there was Ralph Reed being interviewed, saying that Republicans in exit polls claimed to be voting for Bush because they "cared about moral issues." She almost hit the roof, the implication of course being that the Democrats don't.

When I vote, it's not a clear case of, that guy's a twerp, my guy's great; I vote a certain direction because my priorities, my life experience are leading me there. For me, these things are paramount, and have (at least in my lifetime) been emphasized more by Democrats: civil liberties/human rights issues, public education receiving more than lip service (i.e., the Federal government's increasing demands need to be increasingly funded), and public health & environmental issues should be addressed by the government, not just left to the CEOs. But if you don't share my priorities, I will still be happy to eat dinner with you (especially if you cook for me), as long as we can agree to disagree ;-) I think that ultimately, our country's true strength lies in our ability to express and discuss our conflicts & disagreements rather than stuff things or bash each other upside the head (PLO vs Israeli style).

I'm also thinking about how many American Christians have, from time to time, taken the WRONG side. Yes, sometimes there really is a wrong side. And we should always be willing to examine our hearts to see if we're taking the wrong side (which usually has to do with buying into our fears). Check out Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letters from a Birmingham Jail"--http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html--in which he specifically addressed the theological-political attacks of conservative clergymen who accused him, point blank, of doing the "unwise, untimely" thing. He was, on the other hand, going for the godly thing.

Going along with your main point (as I understand it) Russ, it's crucial for Christ followers to keep in mind Paul's admonitions to hold to unity in Christ: neither slave nor free, neither Jew nor Gentile, neither male nor female. These were HUGE distinctions in the 1st century world, much greater than the Republican-Democrat divide, as awkward as it may feel to some of us sometimes.

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From: GaryG
Date: Wed Nov 3 15:49:52 MST 2004 Subject: thanks

Great responses, both of you. Russ, I think you have a valid point about not growing up in the church. I became a Christian at age 37, so that may have a lot to do with it. Also coming into play is having lived in the Bible Belt for about 12 years prior to last year's move to Tucson, I always felt so strangely out of place after I became a Christian, as I was surrounded by fundamentalist types. Part of the negative image that I have is not so much political views but that of the stereotypical southern fire and brimstone, you're all goin' to hell, self-righteous Pat Boone-ish people...know what I mean? It is a stereotype, and I lead guilty to categorizing people, but there is no shortage of those type of people in that part of the country. Charity towards them is a two-way street, even though I know I should extend it even when I don't get it in return. Karen, I know exactly how your Mom felt-I am so ticked at the Catholic leadership in this country for identifying abortion, euthenasia and stem cell research as "non-negotiables" for the members to consider in the voting booth, but forgetting about Iraq (even though the pope has been against the war from the start) and the death penalty. Yes,that "implication" that my political views are not compatible to Christianity...when I sense that from someone, all hope of me being graceful is out the window. The evangelical pundits of our day seem to be full of that attitude, and I confess a genuine struggle with hatred towards them. I can deal with disagreement as long as respect comes with it. I have several very dear friends who are very conservative, but they have arrived at their views through a lifetime of education and experience instead of regurgitating something they heard from Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly. They disagree with me but respect me, and I give them the same grace. So, I know I need to work on giving grace even when I'm not receiving it-it's probably my biggest spiritual battle of the moment. Thanks for sharing your hearts and ideas, I feel better already. Four more years? AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!! Sorry, just venting :-)

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From: Karen
Date: Wed Nov 3 16:23:22 MST 2004 Subject: Bible Belt

...so you're saying the buckle was too tight? ;-)

Yeah, I can relate.

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From: paulmo
Date: Thu Nov 4 01:50:07 MST 2004 Subject: Feeling a bit droopy m'self

For what it's worth, I'm pretty depressed too, Gary. Mostly not because of the politics of Iraq or taxes or social security reform or the supreme court justices, etc. etc., tho. They're all serious issues, but ones that our country has survived through before and will again.

No, I'm mostly depressed by the fact that this election was won not on those issues, but on gay marriage. The Bush team cynically used an exaggerated and grotesque caricature of one group of Americans (gays) to frighten another group of Americans (evangelicals) so that would forget all of the other relevant issues on the table and single issue vote this election. Every analysis I've seen said this was an election decided soley on social issues like gay marriage. And the gay marriage bans that passed weren't just against gay marriage -- they strip gay partners of all kinds of different rights including raising kids and any other basic activity shared by a couple. Completely punitive and unnecessary, and nothing more than an outlet for rage and loathing and disgust and all of the other baser human emotions.

Whether you think gay marriage is right or wrong is beside the point to me. The statement now given to gays in a public policy way is that the church can't stand them, and wants to make their lives miserable. And this isn't new. I've have no idea what to tell my gay friends about church. There just aren't many evangelical churches where they would even feel welcome to set foot in the door, much less join the congregation. And it's even more depressing that the animosity from evangelical Christians is now a set of mandated govt. policies.

It's a far far cry from Jesus taking the time to go to the houses of those labeled as sinners and untouchables to eat and have a good time with them. This election makes it clear to me why Jesus' harshest condemnations were all, without exception, directed at the professionally religious lost in their piety and self-congratulation and disdain for those in need.

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From: GaryG
Date: Thu Nov 4 09:23:19 MST 2004 Subject: Heard that

Thanks Paul, it's refreshing and comforting to see an attitude of mercy rather than condemnation-after all, isn't that what Christ is about? I feel like the church today has replaced the adulterous woman in John 8 with gay people, and it tears me up that so many fail to see the hypocrisy in that. As I said , it was a political stroke of genius for Bush to come out in favor of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. Even though such an amendment is a longshot to pass, it resulted in the mobilization of the conservative evangelical base that eventually led to a W victory. Yeah, I think it's a red herring, like the anti-flag burning proposal, to distract from the real issues of the day. Yes, as we sit here blogging thousands of flags are being put to the torch and married gays are moving in next door to you, better amend the constitution. Our constitution is as close to sacred as a worldly document can be, the idea of amending it in order to deny rights to a certain group of people is anathema to me. Ah, but I promised that this thread was not going to be a debate...
Also, Russ, in re-reading your reply, I was trying to get across not that there is something wrong with the views of the conservatives, but that I was feeling like there was something wrong with me for being so out of step with the mainstream.
I guess I just need to accept that God has brought me to this place for His purposes, that He allowed me to develop these passionate viewpoints as part of His plan for me. No, that doesn't excuse my sin of lack of love for those with differing viewpoints, but I believe that there is something He wants me to use out of all this, and I don't think the answer is simply changing my views to fit the majority...as if!

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From: eric
Date: Thu Nov 4 12:34:21 MST 2004 Subject: ah

Hey Russ,
I have a feeling that there were a lot of little old Grandmas in Israel who loved God, but needed a prophet to come along and point out their misdirection. I'm not saying that Paul, Gary, and Karen are the future prophets, but they have every right to believe that those little grandmas need to wake-up to the world around them.

e

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From: Karen
Date: Thu Nov 4 13:42:07 MST 2004 Subject: The prophet margin

Prophets (like MLK) are useful, you say? "Hey, you guys, you're off base," from time to time? Not my gifting, particularly, but one I respond to well.

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From: Kathryn
Date: Thu Nov 4 23:39:29 MST 2004 Subject: I have a different take

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From: Kathryn
Date: Thu Nov 4 23:46:04 MST 2004 Subject: I have a different take

With all due respect, I don't think this election was won just on gay marriage or by pitting evangelicals against homosexuals or vice versa.

Really.

I think it goes a whole lot deeper than that. I think the left in general and the DNC in particular have so thoroughly alienated conservative evangelicals that the dems may not recover.

I think that evangelicals see themselves as arrayed against the whole culture. For example, if you believe in a young earth and are a strict creationist and you see bumper stickers and Darwin fish mocking you it communicates something about how you and your values are viewed. If you try to stand for what you believe is right and you are told it is hate speech and unacceptable but then discover that hate speech directed at you is acceptable, it communicates something about how much you and your values are valued.

I know a lot of Christians voted for Bush because they believe he is a wonderful Godly man, but, really, I don't think it would have mattered one iota who the Republicans ran as long as he communicated that it was acceptable to be a conservative Christian. I think this election was lost by the Democratic Party because of what the Democratic Party stands for in a lot of people's minds - intolerance of conservative Christianity and conservative Christian values.

Further, I think the schism is going to get deeper and wider, not shallower and narrower. I know Gary is deeply committed to the concept of separation of church and state. He's entitled to his opinion, but many Christians don't think he's right and they have some good reasons for thinking that.

The phrase separation cannot be found in the constitution. Thomas Jefferson made the statement about a wall of separation in a letter to the Danbury Baptists and the founder’s intent, as indicated by their writings, was that the first amendment would prevent the establishment of a state church like the Anglican Church in England or the Lutheran church in Norway or the Catholic Church in Spain.

I think there are people who, formerly, might have been willing to live and let live who have been pushed too far over the whole separation issue. The whole Ten Commandments in the courthouse in Mississippi could have been easily dealt with if it had been treated as a tenth amendment issue instead of a first amendment issue. But because it was treated as a first amendment issue it enraged people on both sides and, I think, gave Bush a kick-start.

I think the fact that Daschall lost his seat speaks volumes for the mood of the heartland toward the dems. I think if they don't make some concessions things are going to get mighty ugly.

Unfortunately, if they do make concessions, things are also going to get mighty ugly.

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From: GaryG
Date: Fri Nov 5 09:24:36 MST 2004 Subject: Morals and such

It seems I'm not the only one having problems with responses...I posted a response yesterday that shows only the title, as it seems did others. Hope this shows (unless God is just trying to protect me from myself ;-)
Kathryn, you made some excellent points but I'm afraid I disagree on your main point. Everything I've seen in the post election coverage points out the importance of "moral values" to those voting Bush. I don't have the percentages in front of me, but it was clearly the most important issue for the majority of Bush voters, ahead of terrorism, Iraq, the economy, etc. The anti-gay marriage proposals in the various states served as a huge get out the vote rallying cry, and the people spoke very loudly about how they felt! Here in Massachusetts, the talk is that the state court sealed Kerry's fate by legalizing gay marriage. True? It may or may not be, but it certainly provided fuel for the fire, and was certainly as damaging as all that Swift Boat b.s. So my concern is not that Bush voters value morals, but that they consider me immoral because I am not opposed to gay marriage, at least as far as amending our constitution or passing state laws against it. It is the same mentality that says I am unpatriotic because I do not support the war in Iraq and will not rally around my president over this issue. I read a column from the SF Chronicle that told of the experience of a young Kerry volunteer doing some door knocking who was told by one homeowner "I'm a Republican! Didn't you see my flag?" I could make arguments about the "morality" of using deceit to send young men to war, about the "morality" of 100,000 Iraqis killed, about putting corporate interests before the interests of the people, about the ever widening gap between rich and poor... to me, social justice (I know that's a very broad term) is certainly as important Biblically as personal "morals", and I would argue that it is way more front and center in the message of Christ. What was the real sin of Sodom? Ezekiel 16:49-50 says "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore, I removed them when I saw it."
My thoughts on separation of church and state are not based so much on the Constitution itself (I am aware of the context of Jefferson's remarks), but more on history. Christianity (or any religion) and government is a bad mix, look at Constantine and what happened to Christianity at that point in history. But I would still lean on the First Amendment as "freedom from" as well as "freedom to practice". As far as the Ten Commandment statue controversy, I would just ask what was their real motivation in placing those statues on public property? Defiance? Nose-tweaking? Can't say for sure. But to me, my faith is too important to be legislated, used as a tool for political gain or for intimidation. I know my stands on this issue are considered extreme by the majority of Christians, but I feel it's a voice that needs to be heard-checks and balances, if you will.
Theology and eschatology come in to play here as well, and though I'm not qualified to discuss these subjects in detail, suffice it to say that I believe in a spiritual, not a physical Kingdom, and the efforts of some to make America "God's Kingdom on earth" reveal a different understanding of prophecy and end times than I subscribe to. And that's fine, but when eschatology comes into play in our foreign and domestic policy, well that's pretty frightening to me.
I think it's great that Mr Bush is a believer, but is he more "moral" than Mr Kerry? I see way, way more verses in the Bible about the sin of pride than I do about homosexuality or any sexual sin, and isn't Bush's refusal to admit mistakes and to listen to those who oppose him a sign of pride? So again, it comes down to what you value as "moral".
Ryan, thanks for your remarks. I know I am struggling very deeply with my own sin here, and perhaps this lengthy blog is only serving to further that. I guess I have to go back to my original intent, and that is to express my feelings of alienation over all this. I know my views are as flawed as the "other side" is, and perhaps this blog only further exposes my own error-I just don't know. Yes, we need healing in this country, and that will take a lot of humility from both sides of the aisle, from both the red and blue states, for this to happen. And I guess it has to start with the individuals...I know I need to offer respect if I'm going to receive any. Please pray for me...

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From: ryan
Date: Thu Nov 4 23:52:56 MST 2004 Subject: different takes love

I've been really moved over this election, too. Not that I really cared much who won; what has been moving is that rift growing ever wider between the two `sides', each finding more and more reason to be angry at, bear contempt for, despise, and vilify the other. Lately I have felt so worn down by the sin of my friends (no, I'm not thinking of anyone in this thread!). I have been grieving for my left-leaning friends who think religious people are nuts and self-righteous, and say the nastiest things about them (like George W is a moron, or just plain evil; that conservative Christians are unwitting Crusaders). When they do, it exposes them as being equally self-righteous as those they accuse. My right-leaning friends do the same things about different issues. I've wanted to cry out, Hey folks, wake up! Can't either of you see that you're both guilty of the same sin? Can't you see you're both so insulated in your own world view that you have no understanding for anyone who sees things differently? I read this whole thread, I listen to my friends on both side of the aisle, and really what we want is just to feel understood and cared about. But somehow things get screwy and we start being so disrespectful of one another. And we want to fit somewhere, and feel like we either take sides or just sit in alienation.

So yeah Gary, like you, I feel totally out of step. Only sometimes I feel like I'm out of step with everyone. I can't even say I'm neutral or Switzerland or a moderate or anything like that, because I certainly have my opinions. I find myself wondering if my own feelings of being out of step come not from having a different view, but knowing that there is always going to be someone who won't accept it - and not being okay with being unacceptable.

I had an interesting conversation with Dennis last night. We were talking about respecting the opinions and views of other people. I suggested that all issues are petty when you aren't okay with someone disagreeing with you. I suggested that because I realized that some of my left-leaning friends would probably be dismayed about some of my views. Some of my right-leaning and religious friends would probably be equally dismayed. As a follower of Jesus, I think I'm called to be okay with their dismay of me - and that it's not okay for me to be dismayed at them. Jesus set me free to love, right? Then I'm called to love the self-righteous religious zealot and I'm called to love the self-righteous religious-zealot-basher. They're both worthy of Jesus' harshest condemnations, they're both the untouchables, and I, the outcast, am both of them.

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From: MaryKay
Date: Fri Nov 5 10:02:53 MST 2004 Subject: Granny speaks

Ryan, I think you have hit upon the root of the problem. I spent most of my life in the very conservative evangelical church. On the surface it appeared to be completely unemotional but challenge what they believed and the intensity level went through the roof. What I can see now is their need to protect themselves and to prove they had the right answers. Misdirected passion. Are we any different? We spend so much time and energy protecting what we believe to be right we have so little left for God. Misdirected passion. I believe this holds true in every part of our life not just the spiritual. We have become a society that wears its emotions on its sleeves and that really troubles me. More and more people I talk to vote or make their daily decisions based on their emotional responses. That should not be enough! Passion is beautiful but passion misplaced is dangerous. Political candidates play to people’s emotions because the majority of us don’t want to think and work to seek answers. Too many people choose misdirected passion because it is the easy and safe way to live life. As an example think of all the prejudice and intolerance you can experience and dish out in our world. Choose the hard way of thinking through your emotions and living passionately what God believes. This is something I have learned in my time away from the mainline church. The ironic thing is that I’m beginning to think God is leading me to eventually return to the mainline church and embrace the people there in love and tolerance. I’d like to challenge each of you to find someone you feel uncomfortable with and really listen to where they are coming from before taking the easy road of misdirected passion.

Mary Kay

P.S. Thanks Karen for including me in your grouping of praying grandmas!

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From: GaryG
Date: Fri Nov 5 11:11:41 MST 2004 Subject: Grandma rules!

Thank you Mary Kay for a very wise response. I said in my first post that I felt God had given me this passion for these issues for a reason, but not for me to turn the tables and villify those who I disagree with. It hurts to be villified, but the correct response is certainly not to repay evil with evil, and I certainly have been guilty of that. I just moved to Massachusetts, so I can't say that I totally share in their suffering, but imagine how the people here feel-the very word "Massachusetts" is a political buzzword used to villify any candidate from here (and thus those that elected them). So will this administration reach out to those it has villified? What will the response of the people here be? I don't know, but there is a lot of healing to do, both on a personal and a national level. The best thing we can all do is pray for healing and pray for wisdom for our leaders....

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From: Krysti
Date: Sat Nov 6 16:19:05 MST 2004 Subject: the same

Hi Gary,
I'm responding not because I really know anything but because I've experienced ONE thing that may be of help to your feelings of "out of it".
Businesses, politians, school staff...most any group that is selling something has realized this one thing.

If one person feels this way (positive OR negative) about what we are doing, selling, saying, teaching.... there are lots more who feel the very same way but aren't saying it to us.
No matter if you are the only person you know who feels as you do, you can be pretty assured that there are plenty of others who just don't talk about it for whatever reason.

Have a feeling of "with it" even as you struggle because none of us are really ever alone.
Krysti

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From: mike
Date: Sun Nov 7 14:44:39 MST 2004 Subject:

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From: mike
Date: Sun Nov 7 14:56:32 MST 2004 Subject: Round Tables

I usually watch the Sunday morning round tables for entertainment. I wanna see who is the boldest liar of the week. This morning the talk was dominated by the election results. Lots of name calling by the democrats towards the religous right.
After reading the responses to your blog, my thoughts were confirmed. Our political leaders missed the point. The issues are complex, and do not cover just the war. Personally, I am opposed to the war, and many of the republican ideas. I voted for Bush. It had nothing to do with the war, or the ecomony. Those are important, and I would have voted for Kerry over those issues.
The deciding factor for me was a moral issue I cannot overlook. No, it was not gay marriage. That was a non issue to me, as a matter of fact. Yes, this election was decided on values. However, it was not just christians that voted along those lines. (please do not call it the christian right, I do not want to be listed as one)Unbelievers voted according to thier sence of right and wrong also.

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benjipark (12/2/10)

music (upload)
Frosted Flakes :
Everywhere j2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Flakes :
New Found Hope J2014 (1/16/14)
Frosted Fla es :
Trinity Jan2014 (1/16/14)
Skeptic Chickens :
No Condemnation (7/29/13)
Karen and Friends :
Breastplate May 5 (5/10/13)

sermons (upload)
Eric,Ron Layman: The Disciplines RL (3/6/14)
Eric: Habakkuk Part One (1/16/14)
Eric: Noah's Ark (9/27/13)
Eric: The Fall (9/13/13)
Rod: Creation (9/13/13)

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